Carvetight vs. Rock Chuck

[Roadrigger]

Hey all, been awhile since Ive been here. I've tried to fix my Z stall 303 error about 2 months ago and thought I had fixed it. But as I was carving this weekend the dreaded Z stall 303 came up with about 25% carved. I noticed my bit (Im using the QC right now) now has about 1/8" of play at the tip. So I am breaking down to get a new chuck for my machine.

The question is am I headed in the right direction to get rid of this error, and what chuck do I get? Is there a difference besides price? I watched the youtube video of RJustice's Rock chuck and am very inpressed, but the carvetight will take back my Z truck and make my total about $50 less... I just want the most for my money, and ESPECIALLY to get rid of all the errors and start carving again!

Thanks,

Kevin

[Roadrigger]

Hey all, been awhile since Ive been here. I've tried to fix my Z stall 303 error about 2 months ago and thought I had fixed it. But as I was carving this weekend the dreaded Z stall 303 came up with about 25% carved. I noticed my bit (Im using the QC right now) now has about 1/8" of play at the tip. So I am breaking down to get a new chuck for my machine.

The question is am I headed in the right direction to get rid of this error, and what chuck do I get? Is there a difference besides price? I watched the youtube video of RJustice's Rock chuck and am very inpressed, but the carvetight will take back my Z truck and make my total about $50 less... I just want the most for my money, and ESPECIALLY to get rid of all the errors and start carving again!

Thanks,

Kevin

[jaroot]

Hi Kevin

My son and I have a CW with a bad QC also. We have decided to replace it with a CT. But the reason we are going that way is because we've had problems with our z-truck. It has spit out the retaining ring twice so we don't really trust it. If it were not for that I believe that we would go with the Rock mostly because I have a real hard time paying $40 for what is just a $15 bit with a fancy sleeve pressed on. However we don't trust the z-truck and since we have to replace it anyway the CT is the cheapest way for us to go. LHR claims that a solid carbide bit will slip without a pressed sleeve, Justice seems to think that that is not the case. Lots of people are using the Rock and don't seem to be having much of a problem with that so maybe it is a design issue with the CT. I'm not a machinist or engineer so I'm not qualified to make that call. Anyway that's my thoughts and opinion and it is worth every penny you paid for it.;)

[dbfletcher]

I dont think you can go wrong with either one. However, if you choose the carve-tight, you will currently still be locked to LHR for carving and cutting bits (they require a pressed on sleeve). With the rock, you are free to use other third party cutting and carving bits.

[unitedcases]

If you look at a carving bit it has the small flat for when using it with a QC. The point is that when people use Ron's chuck they dont always make sure that the flat is pointed away from where the hex clamp clamps down. So people believe there will be slippage. I have never had a problem with Rons chuck. And you dont have to have sleeves pressed on for his chuck.

[flyingemt]

There is absolutely no reason not to go with a Rock Chuck. I have had mine for over 6 months now, and to tell the truth, ZERO problems! It's worth every single dime and Ron is now manufacturing without the flat spot. Bottom line, invest for the best.

V/R

Mike

[hess]

I will try to stay with the Rock or the Muscle chuck. Why The makers of those looked for a means to fix a problem while many others just kept hitting many of us with it is user Error and stuff like that. Yes Im Glad LHR made the CT but now we see it was not just UE some of us must have not got the same QCs that those who did not have the problems. So My $ will go to fund Ron and others who worked though problems for us and did not say we were just a bunch of dummy's Thanks Ron and Al and others

[jaroot]

I will try to stay with the Rock or the Muscle chuck. Why The makers of those looked for a means to fix a problem while many others just kept hitting many of us with it is user Error and stuff like that. Yes Im Glad LHR made the CT but now we see it was not just UE some of us must have not got the same QCs that those who did not have the problems. So My $ will go to fund Ron and others who worked though problems for us and did not say we were just a bunch of dummy's Thanks Ron and Al and others

If it wasn't for the fact that I don't trust our current z-truck (retainer has fallen out twice) I would go with the Rock. But since the z-truck will need to be replaced it is more economical to go with the CT. I do understand where you are coming from and the frustration that some of you guys that have been around awhile have experienced would probably dictate that you give your money to the guys that first searched for a solution to what apparently was an obvious defect in the design. But for me I have to go the most economical route.

[hess]

You are correct to do so when it if I have to change I will. Iam happy that these changes have been made and hope they prove to make the units better and better sometimes change is like pulling teeth

[henry1]

I will try to stay with the Rock or the Muscle chuck. Why The makers of those looked for a means to fix a problem while many others just kept hitting many of us with it is user Error and stuff like that. Yes Im Glad LHR made the CT but now we see it was not just UE some of us must have not got the same QCs that those who did not have the problems. So My $ will go to fund Ron and others who worked though problems for us and did not say we were just a bunch of dummy's Thanks Ron and Al and others
I totally agree with you RON chuck are the best and will stay with him he help us a great deal

[CarverJerry]

Can anyone who has the Carvetight give us some feed back on it? I use the Rock, love it but would like to know what CT users think of theirs.

CJ

[AskBud]

Can anyone who has the Carvetight give us some feed back on it? I use the Rock, love it but would like to know what CT users think of theirs.

CJ
First, let me say that both are far superior to the old Quick Change (QC) chuck. I have never owned the Rock, but understand the design. I now have CarveTight Assemblies on both of may machines, and now enjoy having a dust collector that is louder than the carving machines!

Both eliminate the need for the adapters, which contributed to our problems.

The Rock is an after market replacement, and it works very well. the problem occurs when it is placed too late to save the spindle assembly from being damaged by the spate of problems caused by the QC. Once the spindle and other parts are damaged, the Rock, itself, will not solve your problems. If you wait too long to convert to the Rock or CarveTight it's the old saying "Pay me now, or pay more later".

I believe that the CarveTight (CT) Assembly was developed as a direct result of all the problems caused by the QC. It is very similar to the Rock, with the exception that the spindle and chuck are one complete unit. This eliminates any looseness that may exist in any multi-part chuck and spindle.

LHR has stated the the Carbide shank Carving ,and Cutting, bits must have a "pressed on sleeve". This may or may not be true (who cares)! I think it is there to protect the user and, more-over, to protect the warranty that LHR has in place.

Enjoy either the Rock or the CT!
AskBud

[Jeff_Birt]

Carbide bits 'CAN' slip in any type of collet/tool holder given the right circumstances. I had a 3/8 carbide, two flut flat end mill , pull out of an ER collet the other day because the collet was a little worn, but the collet still worked fine with steel shank bits.

Also, Ron does not manufacture bits. He resells them just like everybody else...

[gwhiz]

Can anyone who has the Carvetight give us some feed back on it? I use the Rock, love it but would like to know what CT users think of theirs.

CJ

I just installed a Carvetight last week and I'm pleased (and sorry that I waited so long to get rid of the QC!). It's certainly faster and easier to change bits than the QC and they're held more solidly in place. I haven't used the Rock and therefore can't compare the two, and I haven't run a carving or cutting bit without the pressed on sleeve (although i will at some point!).

[chebytrk]

I agree with what some others have said about the Rock Chuck. Ron (and others) were there in trying to figure out a solution when we all were having problems and not getting anywhere with our complaints and concerns. We were all (those with QC problems) just preaching to the Choir and that's as far as it went.... until Ron decided to do something about it. He invested, researched, tested and researched some more until he got it right. HE then offered a solution while no one else (LHR) did. Some of us took his word and offer and have been happy ever since. As quite some time went by, someone (LHR) decided to get on board and come up with a fix (CT) for the still continuing problem. Is it a coincidence that one looks and functions very similar to the other? So...... me.... I'm sticking with the one that took it upon himself to find a solution, test it and stand by it (lifetime warranty). It's not that one is better than the other or that one does this or that. It's about the one that did something about it when nothing else was being done to fix the problem. This is just my humble opinion in how I feel about it and that's what I'm going with and will forever be greatful.

[gwhiz]

I noticed my bit (Im using the QC right now) now has about 1/8" of play at the tip.

Kevin--make sure that the bit is seating completely in the QC. Check the bottom of the QC with a mirror to ensure that the red marks are lining up. I used to have to rap on the sides of my QC with the bit tool while pressing down on the QC sleeve with every bit change to get it to seat all the way. I now have the CT and bit changes are a lot faster than with the 'Quick' chuck!

[PCW]

Nice thing about the Rock Chuck is your not locked into one source for bits. Made in the USA and is excellent quality. Never had a problem using it in the past year.

CarveTight looks like a solid design however the only place that I know of to buy bits for it is LHR.

[PCW]

I don't know if that is totally accurate. I had Ron make some 1/6" bits with a V on one end and a cutting bit on the other end.
34985


Also, Ron does not manufacture bits. He resells them just like everybody else...

[SteveEJ]

So, you used a known worn collet with a carbide shaft bit to justify the slippage? Sounds like a inspection problem. I use carbide shaft bits with a 3 1/4 hp porter cable router running at 22,000 rpm and do not have problems. That doesn't mean I won't, especially if I don't do due diligence inspecting the shaft, collets, etc. That doesn't point to a carbide shaft in steel chuck issue though. It is a widely used practice.

[Router-Jim]

Can anyone who has the Carvetight give us some feed back on it? I use the Rock, love it but would like to know what CT users think of theirs.

CJ

Hey if they want to send me a CarveTight I'd be happy to do a side-by-side comparision. ;)

For those with the CT, if it takes 1/2 bits directly, can it not take a 1/4" bit with an adapter? :confused:

Or is it just the concern about slippage? :confused:

[lynnfrwd]

The CT can take any 1/4" shank bit using a rubber stop collar and sharing a 1/4" split collet EXCEPT for the carbide bits (1/16" Carving Bit & 1/8" Cutting Bit). The carbide bits can and will eventually slip with the split collet. They require a hard pressed adapter that will not slip.

The 1/16" cutting bit (itty bitty one) is a carbide bit, but the outside that makes it a full 1/4" bit is steel. Therefore, it can share the split collet.

[cnsranch]

The 1/8" cutting bit (itty bitty one) is a carbide bit, but the outside that makes it a full 1/4" bit is steel. Therefore, it can share the split collet.

Did you mean 1/16"?

[lynnfrwd]

Yes, itty bitty is 1/16" not 1/8".

Thanks!

[Router-Jim]

The CT can take any 1/4" shank bit using a rubber stop collar and sharing a 1/4" split collet EXCEPT for the carbide bits (1/16" Carving Bit & 1/8" Cutting Bit). The carbide bits can and will eventually slip with the split collet. They require a hard pressed adapter that will not slip.

The 1/16" cutting bit (itty bitty one) is a carbide bit, but the outside that makes it a full 1/4" bit is steel. Therefore, it can share the split collet.

Thanks for the quick reply. Just so I'm clear, if the shaft is carbide, then it needs a pressed adapter....right? If the shaft is steel and the cutters are carbide then I can use a split adapter...right?

[lynnfrwd]

Thanks for the quick reply. Just so I'm clear, if the shaft is carbide, then it needs a pressed adapter....right? If the shaft is steel and the cutters are carbide then I can use a split adapter...right?

Yes and yes!

[Router-Jim]

Great!

Thanks again.

Jim

[Jeff_Birt]

So, you used a known worn collet with a carbide shaft bit to justify the slippage?


I'm not justfying anything. I'm just staing that contray to what other folks want to belive, carbide bits WILL slip when a steel shank will not. I think that is what CW was trying to avoid with their pressed on adapters for the smaller bits (and the runout will be less than a split busing as well.)

[cnsranch]

Enlighten me, Jeff (seriously) is carbide more porous, preventing the collet from gripping it properly??

[Jeff_Birt]

No carbide is much harder and will not compress like steel does. When you chuck in a steel shanked bit, the shank will actually compress slightly; overtighten the chuck and you'll dent the shank. With a solid tool holder (like the QC adapter) the set screw will bite into the steel shank, but not carbide, that is why you need the flat spot.

[cnsranch]

I see said the blind man.....

Hey, you should be an engineer http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSfox000)

[onearmedwoodworker]

My machine finally carves right with the Carvetight system. Unfortunately it only took six months to have this level of success with my machine. It is so much easier for me to change the bits now. I can do the bit changes now myself instead of needing someone elses help to change the bits. Thank you for making this dynamic change!

[rjustice]

I don't know if that is totally accurate. I had Ron make some 1/6" bits with a V on one end and a cutting bit on the other end.
34985

I do manufacture all of the "V" bits that i sell from carbide blanks... Thanks PCW