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View Full Version : Need to order Carvetight or Rock - a few questions



jgowrie
05-03-2010, 03:49 PM
Today while cleaning my QC through the method of lifting and dropping the QC flange - everything popped out and the spring and ball bearings came out. Nice - guess it's better it failed while I wasn't running the job I had just loaded.

So everyone knows that design wasn't the best and it seems "just in time" for my QC failure I've got the option of two replacements.

First question is does Carvewright fully warranty their new Carvetight system against defects like Ron does for the lifetime of the product or is their policy still the same as it was on the QC?

*edit* I removed the second question because I just found the answer on RJ's website

Has anyone removed their carbide bits from the QC adaptors to use with your Rock Chuck. I just spoke with C.S. at CW and they said it's very difficult and frequently results in bit damage. Is this just a marketing response or is this most likely the case on the carbide bits? That is a significant savings not having to buy new bits and would lean me more in the direction of Ron's chuck.

JDPratt
05-03-2010, 04:28 PM
I use the Rock and I am still using the bits that came with the QC adapters. You just have to heat them up a little with a portable propane or similar torch to loosen the locktite in them. Use a vise if you have one or a couple pair of locking pliars (i.e. vise-grips) and once you have it heated up, tap the bit out from the top side. The damage will come if you allow the bit to come out and fall to the floor. Make sure there is something under the bit to catch it (don't use you fingers or hand, it is HOT!! DAMHIKT).

dbfletcher
05-03-2010, 04:31 PM
Today while cleaning my QC through the method of lifting and dropping the QC flange - everything popped out and the spring and ball bearings came out. Nice - guess it's better it failed while I wasn't running the job I had just loaded.

So everyone knows that design wasn't the best and it seems "just in time" for my QC failure I've got the option of two replacements.

First question is does Carvewright fully warranty their new Carvetight system against defects like Ron does for the lifetime of the product or is their policy still the same as it was on the QC?

*edit* I removed the second question because I just found the answer on RJ's website

Has anyone removed their carbide bits from the QC adaptors to use with your Rock Chuck. I just spoke with C.S. at CW and they said it's very difficult and frequently results in bit damage. Is this just a marketing response or is this most likely the case on the carbide bits? That is a significant savings not having to buy new bits and would lean me more in the direction of Ron's chuck.

I'm betting nearly all of us rock chuck users have removed their bits from the qc adpters for use in the rock chuck. Most of mine came out with minimal effort. I only had one or two that where a little stubborn. I cant see how you would damage the bit... there is a possibility of completly destroying the qc adapter but the bit should be fine.

Doug Fletcher

jgowrie
05-03-2010, 04:41 PM
Thanks guys. I think I will remove my bits from the adaptors tonight since I won't order a new system until tomorrow. If they come out clean, I think I'm going with the Rock system based on the cost savings and the proven track record that system has. The lifetime warranty is pretty encouraging also.

spalted
05-03-2010, 04:52 PM
I just installed my new rock chuck this morning and I took my old bits out of the QC adapters. (I also order a couple of new bits when I ordered my Rock chuck.)

I couldn't be happier with my decision to order the Rock Chuck. Ron has been very helpful, a top notch guy in my book, and the chuck is very nicely made.

jgowrie
05-03-2010, 05:20 PM
Well, it took 5 minutes, a torch and vise and my bits came out like butter so I suppose it was marketing BS. Thanks for the help guys! I just save myself around $60 I figure.

lynnfrwd
05-03-2010, 05:40 PM
It may save you $60 now, but just so you are fully aware...your warranty agreement is voided with any unauthorized modifications or alterations. I would hate for you to lose 6 months worth of warranty, because you didn't know. It of course is your choice.

LHR's position has been and still is...carbide bits WILL slip without the hard pressed adapters...GUARANTEED.

SteveEJ
05-03-2010, 05:59 PM
Well then could you please state the following:

1 - What is the warranty with the QC installed?

2 - What is the warranty with the New LHR chuck installed?

3 - What is the warranty with the Rock Chuck installed?

I have not been able to find this out since the QC was removed from the warranty.

Also, 'Guaranteed' in the carbide statement is pretty strong. Is Commercial spindles on CNC's that have steel holding carbide going to slip? My point here is that there are MANY commercial CNC machines, routers, etc. that use carbide shaft bits every day. Isn't LHR making this bigger than it really is?

Please answer all of the questions as I am very interested in learning. I'm sure others are as well..

spalted
05-03-2010, 06:01 PM
........your warranty agreement is voided with any unauthorized modifications or alterations..........


Not to highjack this thread.......I'm very sure I will not be the only one....lol

My question:
I cut my cover to install a much needed point for dust collection, so my warranty is voided then, correct?

lawrence
05-03-2010, 06:08 PM
It may save you $60 now, but just so you are fully aware...your warranty agreement is voided with any unauthorized modifications or alterations. I would hate for you to lose 6 months worth of warranty, because you didn't know. It of course is your choice.

LHR's position has been and still is...carbide bits WILL slip without the hard pressed adapters...GUARANTEED.

I was under the impression that use of the rock chuck did not void the warranty as it was not covered by the warranty... any damage caused by the use of aftermarket accessories could void the warranty, but use of said parts would not by themselves void it. If this is the case, then it needs to be very clearly spelled out-- because it has not been very clearly spelled out in the past. Does this ring true for dust collectors as well-- or for "home made" muffler covers? How about grounding systems? I'm not being a smart Alec here, I would truly like to know if this is the case.

I have to be perfectly honest with LHR here-- the way this new chuck has been introduced has been both a positive and a negative for me. I am very happy that LHR has listened to the needs of their customers and introduced a new chuck- and it is obvious that a LOT of work went into it. If I didn't already own a Rock chuck (which I am THRILLED with) I would probably consider buying it. This being said, I am at the same time disturbed at the "fear tactics" that are being introduced to discredit a proven accessory many use. I have not done scientific testing but I can say that I have not experienced any real-world slippage-- why can't the company just say "here is our new chuck-- we are very proud of it" instead of attempting to discredit other --time proven-- chucks?

Making a "guarantee" of slippage with a product that is not your own seems a very unprofessional way of promoting what appears to be an excellent new alternative chuck for this amazing machine we all enjoy so much.

With great respect,
Lawrence

dbfletcher
05-03-2010, 06:08 PM
It may save you $60 now, but just so you are fully aware...your warranty agreement is voided with any unauthorized modifications or alterations. I would hate for you to lose 6 months worth of warranty, because you didn't know. It of course is your choice.

LHR's position has been and still is...carbide bits WILL slip without the hard pressed adapters...GUARANTEED.

What happened to the Letter that I know Ron has a copy of insuring that the use of the Rock chuck would have no effect on the warrenty status of the machine?? Nothing like some double talk to really confuse users. Hopefully Ron will chime in soon with exactly WHO at LHR made that statement.... perhaps it was just a staff member who really wasnt authorized to make such claims. There is also a thread in the forum that discusses this (unless it has been removed)... if I find it I will edit this with the relevent link.

Doug Fletcher

Ike
05-03-2010, 06:15 PM
Well then could you please state the following:

1 - What is the warranty with the QC installed?

2 - What is the warranty with the New LHR chuck installed?

3 - What is the warranty with the Rock Chuck installed?

I have not been able to find this out since the QC was removed from the warranty.

Also, 'Guaranteed' in the carbide statement is pretty strong. Is Commercial spindles on CNC's that have steel holding carbide going to slip? My point here is that there are MANY commercial CNC machines, routers, etc. that use carbide shaft bits every day. Isn't LHR making this bigger than it really is?

Please answer all of the questions as I am very interested in learning. I'm sure others are as well..

Steve if I recall the flex and the QC was not covered under the warranty. I think the sand paper belts too?

So that is a good question, if it isn't covered anyway how does it void the warranty? Lol when I was first asked to start taking my CW apart to fix under an LHR tech I thought for sure there goes the warranty! Just suppose I not a so good in fixing things? So I mess it up even more did I void the warranty?

Sorry for the sudden thought!

Ike

lynnfrwd
05-03-2010, 06:20 PM
I have never heard of a letter and shot out of my chair to find out, if there was any such letter. I was told an emphatic "NO...there has never been any such letter."

That is why you see so many comments on this forum about "when my warranty runs out...".

PCW
05-03-2010, 06:21 PM
Ike

That's a good point.



Lol when I was first asked to start taking taking my CW apart to fix under an LHR tech I thought for sure there goes the warranty! Just suppose I not a so good in fixing things? So I mess it up even more did I void the warranty?

Sorry for the sudden thought!

Ike


I have never heard of a letter and shot out of my chair to find out, if there was any such letter. I was told an emphatic "NO...there has never been any such letter."

That is why you see so many comments on this forum about "when my warranty runs out...".

What is the warranty on your new chuck?

rjustice
05-03-2010, 06:27 PM
What happened to the Letter that I know Ron has a copy of insuring that the use of the Rock chuck would have no effect on the warrenty status of the machine?? Nothing like some double talk to really confuse users. Hopefully Ron will chime in soon with exactly WHO at LHR made that statement.... perhaps it was just a staff member who really wasnt authorized to make such claims. There is also a thread in the forum that discusses this (unless it has been removed)... if I find it I will edit this with the relevent link.

Doug Fletcher

I do have an email that was sent to another customer, from customer service at LHR stating....

"while the Rock Chuck system is not supported by LHR, it will not void your warranty"...

As for the Rock Chuck system, the use of the "Rock" brand sleeves are supported in the use of the Rock Chuck. I have been a CNC machinist for 30 years and will stand behind my products. You must remember that it is necessary to orient the sleeves correctly, as shown, and discussed in the past. Also, the mention of "paws" damaging sleeves, does not apply to the Rock Chuck system. After over a year of use, nearing 1000 hours of cut time, and hundreds of tool changes, one of the people that beta tested for me, is still using the same chuck and sleeve that he started with. They both still look like new...

I cannot speak for any other chuck systems.

Happy Carving,

Ron

dbfletcher
05-03-2010, 06:28 PM
I have never heard of a letter and shot out of my chair to find out, if there was any such letter. I was told an emphatic "NO...there has never been any such letter."

That is why you see so many comments on this forum about "when my warranty runs out...".

Well.. I will wait for Ron to post. I KNOW there was a letter...and Ron had a copy... but oddly the thread that discussed it seems to have gone missing.

Doug Fletcher

PS. I just remembered a few more details... it was an email to another user from LHR. Ron requested that the user send him a copy (which was done). So hopefully the original user or Ron will chime in soon.

EDIT: I see Ron did indeed respond as I was typing....

SteveEJ
05-03-2010, 06:33 PM
Steve if I recall the flex and the QC was not covered under the warranty. I think the sand paper belts too?

So that is a good question, if it isn't covered anyway how does it void the warranty? Lol when I was first asked to start taking my CW apart to fix under an LHR tech I thought for sure there goes the warranty! Just suppose I not a so good in fixing things? So I mess it up even more did I void the warranty?

Sorry for the sudden thought!

Ike

Ike,
My points exactly.. We fix and it is in warranty. Rock doesn't void warranty until this new chuck comes out then warranty void. I would just like clarification. Does a dust collector that requires modification void the warranty? If so, doesn't Buds require modification? And if so, why doesn't or does it state that in the Pattern Depot?

I am so confused.. LHR Please clear this up!

jlovchik
05-03-2010, 07:02 PM
Any aftermarket modifications to the CarveWright system has always voided the warranty from any damage caused by the modification. This includes chucks, dust collection systems, and anything else. This has never changed, and isn't any different from any other product.

I'd also like to clarify that LHR is not engaging in "fear tactics". We have stated that we guarantee slip without the hard pressed sleeves based on tens of thousands of hours of testing. It is not possible to hold a carbide bit in a split collet or with a paw chuck system without slip at some point. We don't say it will happen every time, but even if it only slips once in 1000 hrs, it is too many times for us. There is a choice among our consumers and we appreciate that, but we stand behind our statements.

SteveEJ
05-03-2010, 07:15 PM
So, would it be accurate to say that the use of the Rock Chuck does not void the warranty BUT any damage to the spindle/truck during the installation of the Rock Chuck will? What about any damage to the truck/spindle during the removal of the Quick Chuck? It has been noted and stated by many that there is an abundance of Locktite on the QC from the factory. Some have damaged the spindle/truck when replacing the QC with another QC.

fwharris
05-03-2010, 07:17 PM
In talking with Joe about my DC-Insert, he asked that I use the some statement that hey asked Bud to use for his project for dust collection. (see below).

My modification does void the warrant for the cover. It was also recommend that for those who did purchase my insert they could buy a replacement cover/top if they needed to sent their unit into LHR for repairs.

Does a dust collector that requires modification void the warranty? If so, doesn't Buds require modification? And if so, why doesn't or does it state that in the Pattern Depot?

NOTE: disabling or modifying any safety features on your CarveWright/CompuCarve is not endorsed by LHR Technologies, Inc.

SteveEJ
05-03-2010, 07:24 PM
I saw that note in the 'Store' and remembered seeing it before. That is why I was and am concerned. There is a big difference between the 'Not Endorsed' statement required in the store AND this: "It may save you $60 now, but just so you are fully aware...your warranty agreement is voided with any unauthorized modifications or alterations. I would hate for you to lose 6 months worth of warranty, because you didn't know. It of course is your choice.".

It seems that we go through these types of discussions every 6 months or so. LHR having a clearly printed policy concerning their warranty would be a good thing.

spalted
05-03-2010, 07:37 PM
Any aftermarket modifications to the CarveWright system has always voided the warranty from any damage caused by the modification. This includes chucks, dust collection systems, and anything else. This has never changed, and isn't any different from any other product.

I'd also like to clarify that LHR is not engaging in "fear tactics". We have stated that we guarantee slip without the hard pressed sleeves based on tens of thousands of hours of testing. It is not possible to hold a carbide bit in a split collet or with a paw chuck system without slip at some point. We don't say it will happen every time, but even if it only slips once in 1000 hrs, it is too many times for us. There is a choice among our consumers and we appreciate that, but we stand behind our statements.


".......caused by the modification"

It all come down to a question of semantics I guess.
I wouldn't call it fear tactics, but there is an effort to muddy the waters.

My impression is that LHR has issued a high price solution to a problem that they would not admit existed. The new chuck should not be an "upgrade" it should have been a recall.

To add insult to injury all in the same breath, I just purchased the STL imported that I paid 299.00 for but now it's 199.00?

The big announcement was a poorly executed good idea. (Shhhhhhh......don't tell anyone, but I installed my new Rock Chuck this morning);)

CarverJerry
05-03-2010, 07:37 PM
When I got my Ringneck's dust collector I also ordered a new clear cover knowing that I would need to cut it out. I have no regrets what so ever and when I scan something I remove the dust collector, just gives me more room to see and work and the machine still operates just fine with the slot cut in it while scanning. I still have an unopened replacement cover for my machine...just in case...
And I love my ROCK.....the new carvetight looks great too, I'd call it competition pricing and there's nothing wrong with either. Just my 2 cents worth.

CJ

fwharris
05-03-2010, 07:39 PM
I saw that note in the 'Store' and remembered seeing it before. That is why I was and am concerned. There is a big difference between the 'Not Endorsed' statement required in the store AND this: "It may save you $60 now, but just so you are fully aware...your warranty agreement is voided with any unauthorized modifications or alterations. I would hate for you to lose 6 months worth of warranty, because you didn't know. It of course is your choice.".

It seems that we go through these types of discussions every 6 months or so. LHR having a clearly printed policy concerning their warranty would be a good thing.

Steve,

I agree for the most part on your last sentance. But for me and a lot of users it really is a mute point as we are well beyond the warranty period either do to number of hours or time frame.

SteveEJ
05-03-2010, 08:13 PM
Good point. I guess when I do away with the downdraft and get your dust collection system I will not have to buy a clear cover as mine is out of warranty anyway! :roll:

fwharris
05-03-2010, 09:05 PM
Good point. I guess when I do away with the downdraft and get your dust collection system I will not have to buy a clear cover as mine is out of warranty anyway! :roll:

Steve,

Thanks!!!! ;) :D

jgowrie
05-03-2010, 09:35 PM
".......caused by the modification"


My impression is that LHR has issued a high price solution to a problem that they would not admit existed. The new chuck should not be an "upgrade" it should have been a recall.



The big announcement was a poorly executed good idea. (Shhhhhhh......don't tell anyone, but I installed my new Rock Chuck this morning);)

I agree with this statement. It's obvious that QC design caused many failures because it was way too susceptible to failure caused by the dust created by operating your machine. It's amazing how gunked up the inside of the chuck would get after just 1 or 2 jobs and all I do is centerline carve so my dust output is minimal compared to most users.

Maybe not a complete recall but it certainly should have come much quicker and with less additional expense associated with it.

Look the economy sucks, we are all trying to make end meet so I think everyone can understand you aren't going to issue free replacements. But the recent barrage of expensive upgrades you announced in the last month has left a bad taste in peoples mouths because both of these big announcements are what many people consider items which either were not a great design to start with or should have been part of the software package from day one. If a user wants or needs both upgrades we are talking about close to $500 in additional expense.. too much money to expect your loyal user base to fork over for things many feel could have been there from the start.

lawrence
05-03-2010, 10:13 PM
Firstly, let me say that I apologize if I came across as if I was calling lynn unprofessional... my intention was not to place blame on the individual, but instead on the policy of creating a "these bad things can happen if you don't use this product" environment. I'm sorry if it was perceived as a personal attack--it was not intended to be as such.

jlovchik's response certainly clears things up a bit in that modifying things will void your warranty for that part or any damage caused by that part malfunctioning... that makes perfect sense... but just to clarify, that was not what was previously stated

I stand by my polite but firm assertion that saying "carbide will slip, guaranteed" (on the forum and also on an official publication) when a competitor has a chuck that uses this method, is a scare tactic. I understand that if a statement like that is made by LHR that they probably have the numbers/research to back it up-- if they didn't it would be an obvious ethical--if not legal, error... so I'm sure they have done their homework.

I really do enjoy this machine, but I can't help but think that the PR for the carvetight release has been poorly handled in this aspect-- if other chucks are truly not up to the task, I'm sure they will naturally fall by the wayside to the superior chuck, but I can't help but think that saying that the oft critiqued qc chuck is adequate but that aftermarket chucks that are appreciated and trusted by many are substandard was a questionable business decision.

Here are the the statements that have been made since the release of the carvetight to which I base my "scare tactics" accusation.

"It may save you $60 now, but just so you are fully aware...your warranty "agreement is voided with any unauthorized modifications or alterations. I would hate for you to lose 6 months worth of warranty, because you didn't know. It of course is your choice.
LHR's position has been and still is...carbide bits WILL slip without the hard pressedadapters...GUARANTEED."(http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?t=15264)

"The small paws used on other chucks have problems
with dimpling the bits and collets. This is a common
issue with the other chucks." (apr 10 tips and tricks)

The CarveTight has less cantilever forces, especially
when compared to other chuck configurations which sit
too low off the spindle. Being so far out only creates
more load forces, which is hard on everything from the
bits, to the z-truck,and to the flexshaft (apr 10 tips and tricks)

The permanent pressed-on collar
is the ultimate solution, because a standard collet
cannot hold a solid carbide bit completely secure. You
may get away with it for awhile, but it will slip...
guaranteed. A common indication of bit slippage is a zaxis
error, as reported by users of other chuck systems. (apr tips and tricks)

....however there are mixed messages being sent

"jlovchik
CarveWright Staff
I should also say that LHR has never looked at the other chucks out there as a problem. We love that customers have chosen to create these solutions to help themselves and others enjoy their machine experience more. We applaud it and are encouraged by it. Bravo to all for their efforts. "
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?p=127603#post127603

"lynnfrwd
CarveWright Staff
LHR and Ron can make claims all day long. Of course, we are both partial to our own designs. They are both, in fact, good designs. The true test will be when customers or an impartial third party makes the comparison.
Can't wait to get some customer feedback on the new spindle! "
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?p=128403#post128403


Once again, I truly enjoy the carvewright and am a great supporter of LHR and the machine here and on other forums (my amazon review, WWA, youtube, etc.) However I refuse to be told one thing and then told another without respectfully questioning it--
With great respect,
Lawrence

dbfletcher
05-03-2010, 10:30 PM
Lawrence,

Great job! Well researched and very well stated. It seems every time I have tried to bring up conflicting statements someone accuses me of bad mouthing LHR.. when in fact I'm just trying to make sure I understand which statement is most truthful. I have never thought they were being misleading on purpose, but rather often times a poor word choice leading to a very ambiguous statement. I appreciate your effort in pulling all of those "blurbs" in one well written post.

Doug Fletcher

Metalhead781
05-03-2010, 11:52 PM
**sits back with his tall glass of whiskey (no not single malt), listens to the Rock Chuck and the CW hum instead of scream and watches for the next blow of the title fight**

cnsranch
05-04-2010, 10:03 AM
I've been watching the threads about the Rock and now the CarveTight closely for quite some time. I'm still using the QC, haven't had any problems, but I'm something of a realist. If it ever shells out, I'll go with something other than the QC. That's the reason for my paying attention to the threads, letting you guys road test these things and lead my future decision.

But I'm a little confused about this discussion about warranties, and slippage, etc.

Makes perfect sense to me that if you modify a product, and that modification changes, in any fashion, the way the product was originally designed to operate, you're gonna void the warranty. Any manufacturer (that offers a guarantee) will guarantee the performance of its product, in the way they made it. But if you change it, they can't control the effects the change has made to their product, so they void the warranty. Frankly, I don't blame them.

OK, so now someone's going to point out that the flexshaft, and more importantly, the QC, isn't covered by the Manufacturer. I'll bet the farm that they made the decision not to cover those parts, due to the fact that they have no control over our properly maintaining the Flexshaft, or the QC (cleaning, properly inserting the adapters, etc., etc.)

Regardless of how we look at it, these two parts are the most prone to damage/misuse. We all agree that if we don't do ANYTHING to keep them in shape, they'll fail. What we really don't know, though, is that if we do EVERYTHING to keep them in shape, they won't fail.

So here's my point re the warranty - if I could PROVE to LHR that I did EVERYTHING to maintain my QC, and it shelled, they'd cover it. But I can't PROVE it. And since they can't PROVE that I didn't maintain it, we get into a big watering contest, everybody gets mad, we argue, I ultimately lose, they ultimately lose, too, 'cause I've been alienated in the process, blah, blah, blah. Here's a bet no one can win, 'cause no one can prove it, but my bet is that statistically speaking, more QC's have shelled due to operator error than QC's that have shelled due to poor design, bad construction, etc.

So, what's the answer?

Simple - don't cover the QC or flexshaft, period. As consumers, it ticks us off, but, if my assumption is correct, and I bet the farm it is, remember, I completely understand the manufacturer's decision re warranties - both from a mod standpoint, as well as the QC and flexshaft decision.

Personally, I don't believe they developed the CT because they decided the QC was a poor design, I think they made it 'cause there's someone, somewhere who would be better off with a different design.

And why will I go with a different chuck if and when my QC shells? Because I don't trust myself to properly maintain another one. I KNOW the QC I've got is good, because it's been flawless for 300 hours, and if it does fail in the future, I know it will be because of something I did to it. If it was defective, it would have shelled about 290 hours ago.

The slippage issue?? I'll bet they've seen it happen, and all they're trying to do is point out to us that it'll happen. Hell, we'd be madder if we found out that they know it would happen, and didn't tell us.

So, they made a manufacturing decision to eliminate the potential for slippage. Their decision, their right, period. However, as a business man, what doesn't make sense to me is that it appears that they priced themselves out of the Market with that decision - from a consumer standpoint, it seems to make Ron's chuck more attractive, not inferior enough to justify the added cost of the CT.

We can't have it both ways.

Strictly from a business standpoint, this is purely about control points in the process, nothing more.

But I could be wrong (not).

spalted
05-04-2010, 10:59 AM
I agree with CNS, with one exception. I do think the QC is the weak link in the CW system, I also believe that LHR is well aware of this fact, and that the Carvetight is their solution to the problem. I do not think it was developed and produced because they thought it was a nifty idea. The QC will be a thing of the past for a reason, and that reason is not just lack of proper cleaning and maintenance. My QC did not fail, but it never had acceptable tolerances from the very first minute the machine ran, and I am not alone in this.

I think it is a great thing that improvements to the machine are being made. However I also think that current machine owners have earned a right to a deep discount on the upgraded chuck. It has been all you long time machine owners that have basically been involved in a long drawn out, and expensive beta test......... and your thank you for doing so is a figurative slap in the face in my opinion.

I understand the warranty statements but, it's the combative and condescending tone that they have taken that rubs me the wrong way.

And not to beat a dead horse (but I am getting good at it) The STL importer price drop irritates me to no end, right after I purchased it. How about an e-mail from LHR with a hundred dollar gift certificate good toward the purchase of DXF importer or other items in the store?

The whole situation irritates me because I'm running out of cash to keep throwing at this machine to make it what it should have been out of the box. The cost of the Carvetight is probably fair, unless I'm being ask to pay that cost to replace defective parts, or parts that were produced with poor quality control. A hypothetical example may be (read with a sarcastic tone of voice) a poorly designed and manufactured Quick Chuck.

Before my new machine was usable I have had to tighten loose belts, adjust head pressure, replace the chuck, double check to make sure loctite was used and screws and bolts are tight, pre-lube the flex shaft, make it possible to have dust collection.......... and I'm sure I'm not done yet.

I guess we have to do our own warranty work, so why not just ship the machine unassembled in a kit and we can put them together right the first time? Make the whole thing officially a do it yourself project. It would save time and money.

For me all of those things coupled with the last straw, the over priced "upgrade" of the Carvetight and the way it was released, has just given me a bad attitude.

PCW
05-04-2010, 11:23 AM
LHR Staff,

I still would like to know what the warranty is on the Carve Tight chuck. This question has been asked 3 other times in this tread by three different people and LHR has failed to respond. If they are going to treat the new chuck like the old one and call it a consumable part with no warranty that is a legitimate question for a prospective buyer to have answered by LHR prior to purchase. We are talking about a expensive upgrade here and I think we deserve a reply.

If there is no warranty please just say so and if there is please state the details. Thank You

dmede
05-04-2010, 11:45 AM
I
I'll bet the farm that they made the decision not to cover those parts, due to the fact that they have no control over our properly maintaining the Flexshaft, or the QC (cleaning, properly inserting the adapters, etc., etc.)



anyone considered the possibility they didn't cover it because after testing it they knew it was highly failure prone?

SteveEJ
05-04-2010, 11:52 AM
I am one of the three Dan mentioned and still would like to know.

Jerry: Reference this statement from you:
"from a consumer standpoint, it seems to make Ron's chuck more attractive, not inferior enough to justify the added cost of the CT."

The 'Not inferior enough'? I have personal experience with Ron's chuck and can say that it is of superior quality. I would have to see and test it against the CT to make a judgment. I think others would too.

About the slippage issue. Is LHR talking about THEIR chuck only? Have they, through back channels or otherwise, bought one of Ron's and tested it? Do they have Porter Cable, Bosh, Dewalt or other manufacturer routers they have tested for slippage? Beats me.. If they are saying that a carbide bit in their chuck had slippage problems therefore they decided to use press on sleeves then I would have no problem with that statement but to make a broad statement like this, without specifics, is in my opinion not accurate and may be considered by some irresponsible. Talk to ShopBot users, Legacy users and any others you can think about and get their feedback.

General statements don't bother me that much but 'guarantees' that there will be slippage, with devices that they have do data for, do.

cnsranch
05-04-2010, 01:23 PM
Jerry: Reference this statement from you:
"from a consumer standpoint, it seems to make Ron's chuck more attractive, not inferior enough to justify the added cost of the CT."

The 'Not inferior enough'? I have personal experience with Ron's chuck and can say that it is of superior quality. I would have to see and test it against the CT to make a judgment. I think others would too.



Sorry about that, Steve. I didn't mean to demean Ron's chuck, I was trying to point out that the CT needs to be better enough to justify the cost. A justified cost would imply a product superior to a competitor's, and if it's superior, the competitor's is inferior in comparison.

cnsranch
05-04-2010, 01:43 PM
The warranty issue is indeed a valid one. I have a couple of questions for Ron - and don't shoot the messenger, I'm just making sure I'm comparing apples to apples -

RJ, your website says that the Rock is "WARRANTED FOR LIFE TO BE FREE FROM DEFECTS IN MATERIAL AND WORKMANSHIP".

1. Exactly what does that mean?
2. Is the warranty completely unconditional, as some seem to be stating, and if so, why the conditions in the warranty (As an example, I might buy a really cheap bit with sloppy tolerances, so it's wallering around in the Rock, screwing up it's tolerances, making it unusable - my fault I messed it up, is it still warranted)?
3. What recourse does a consumer have if you simply stop warranting the Rock, or sell the patent (I assume you have one), or sell your business to someone else who chooses not to warrant the Rock, or you retire and flat quit making the Rock, etc.?

Everything I've read says that the Rock is a terrific product - I'm not implying anything else, I'm just trying to make sure I'm not comparing an orange to a banana.

jgowrie
05-04-2010, 02:35 PM
I would also still like to have my original question answered about the warranty on the new Carvetight spindle. LHR took the time to "warn" me about that I would void my current warranty if I choose to order and install a ROCK chuck but didn't take the additional couple of seconds to say "yes" or "no" on the warranty question.. ? I don't get it.

I am going to be honest, I bought a ROCK chuck last night because it has a proven track record, everyone has been happy with it and there is a warranty posted front and center on Ron's website. Plus it's made in the U.S.A. by the person that is selling it. So in the end it really doesn't matter to me if the Carvetight carries a warranty, but the question should be answered by LHR.

SteveEJ
05-04-2010, 03:03 PM
The warranty issue is indeed a valid one. I have a couple of questions for Ron - and don't shoot the messenger, I'm just making sure I'm comparing apples to apples -

RJ, your website says that the Rock is "WARRANTED FOR LIFE TO BE FREE FROM DEFECTS IN MATERIAL AND WORKMANSHIP".

1. Exactly what does that mean?
2. Is the warranty completely unconditional, as some seem to be stating, and if so, why the conditions in the warranty (As an example, I might buy a really cheap bit with sloppy tolerances, so it's wallering around in the Rock, screwing up it's tolerances, making it unusable - my fault I messed it up, is it still warranted)?
3. What recourse does a consumer have if you simply stop warranting the Rock, or sell the patent (I assume you have one), or sell your business to someone else who chooses not to warrant the Rock, or you retire and flat quit making the Rock, etc.?

Everything I've read says that the Rock is a terrific product - I'm not implying anything else, I'm just trying to make sure I'm not comparing an orange to a banana.

No problem Jerry. I thought I knew what you meant but just wanted to make sure.

As the warranty is concerned (on the CT), silence is usually golden but not in this case. Before I invest in a second machine (CW) I will need the answer or I'll save some more and get another CNC.

cnsranch
05-04-2010, 03:07 PM
As the warranty is concerned (on the CT), silence is usually golden but not in this case.

Since it's been brought up, my guess is that they're trying to come up with an answer.

rjustice
05-04-2010, 04:08 PM
Jerry,
Thank you for your inquiry about the warranty of the Rock Chuck.

My intentions of this warranty was to make sure that when someone received my chuck, it would be of noticeable quality, and that they receive it in proper working order, produced to the intention of my design. It is also my hopes that they would see noticeable improvements to their machine vibration, sounds levels, flex shaft temps, and surface finish of thier carvings. This was based on confirmed tests on many machines before I was ready to post it publicly. It is also my hopes that this is would be the last chuck that they would ever need for the life of thier machine. (Note that if you somehow received a balanced, properly working QC, you might not notice all of these benefits, but would certainly see some of them).

To be free from defects in material means that if the material of any of the four parts making up the chuck was found to be defective, and fails from normal use of the chuck, I would simply replace it.

To be free from defects in workmanship means that if the Rock Chuck fails from normal use, due to being improperly manufactured, I would simply replace it.

Based on two years of data, I can tell you that i have not had 1 chuck returned because of either of the above. My beta chucks are still in use by several people. It is in my opinion that if there is something wrong with the chuck, you would know it the very first time it is used. Because of the simplicity of the design, there is an incredibly small chance something will go wrong down the road too.

To be fair, I can tell you that I have had 1 return of 2 chucks that were mangled beyond belief by vice grips, channel locks, and a grinder, I assume that it was because they chose not to use the wrenches i sell with the install kit. I am not going to warrant these for obvious reasons, but I am removing them from the "Z" truck for them free of charge.

Maybe i am too trusting, but i think that in this fine group, (that has become somewhat of a family to me), if someone were to try to hold a 3/16" shank tool in the 1/4" bit adapter, and they ruin the bore, they would :
1) Admit to their mistake, and just buy another bit adapter (replaceable for $79 and about 1 minute of your time)
2) Know that with me being the machinist that produced the chuck i would likely be able to tell what happened to it, and report back my findings, and we would settle like gentlemen.
or
3) If I were to (in the very unlikely event), have something ship out incorrectly machined, I would simply replace it.

I have, and always will, treat people with respect, and treat them right. I have tried hard to live by the golden rule...

I have no intentions of quitting this venture, and will stand behind my products so long as i am in business. I think you will find that this is the case with any warranty you may (or may not) get.

And FOR THE RECORD>>>
The Steel "Rock" brand sleeves used in the Rock Chuck, will work with the Rock Chuck sytem!!! I am not telling you what will work in the CarveTight Chuck, because i did not design, nor test it!

There is a reason that my design works (and perhaps why others don't), and honestly I do not care to tell you why!

I will repeat one more time though, Steel collets and sleeves have been used in daily production, holding carbide tools, for at least the entire 30 years that I have been in business. Machines in our shop range in horsepower from 2hp up to 30hp spindles. The average downforce "Z axis" capability is over 2000 lbs. We use them every day. I will point out though, that they are designed to work in combination with specific chucks.

Hopefully this helps people understand where I am comming from.

Thanks to those that have supported the "Rock Chuck" system!

Best regards,

Ron

Ike
05-04-2010, 04:09 PM
You know the bottom line we were looking for another source for the QC. Ron worked hard and came up with a solution for us and I bought one and never had an issue. I can not say the same for the QC. Now we have another option from LHR, yet it still requires a sleeve not much unlike the bit adapter.

I bought the Rock because to get away from the adapters, I had several bits come loose from the adapters and thus ruin the QC. Now correct me if I am wrong now there is a claim that bits could come loose from the Rock? Lol I must have a good one I find myself having problems getting the bits out and at times back in! Well I don't find this an issue because anyone like me who uses routers know the same thing happens!

Another reason for the Rock I use the 45, 60, 90 degree bits I get from Eagle America and sometimes from Sears etc. This is not recommended, why? What makes the bits from LHR any different? I can see with the notch for the QC for bit slippage. But with the new chuck will it be the same? I see it will because you need to buy the sleeve to use the chuck and the bit comes with it.

I go through quite a few bits with my sign shop so $40.00 a pop verses $20.00 the Rock works best for me. I do use the 1/16th ballnose and love and have found only one other source.

But as Floyd has stated many of us are out of warranty so it really doesn't make any difference! I am glad LHR has came up with a solution, it is just too bad they couldn't work a deal with Ron.

It boils down to us if you are under warranty and have a QC that isn't covered anyway. Do we replace the QC with another QC or with a Rock or with the LHR chuck? Any of the 3 options is money out of our pocket So the question has been will the new chuck be covered under warranty and how long? If not then any issues will come out of our pockets.

Myself I look at it as how much will it cost me in the long run? The Rock I can use my bits without sleeves and buy them at the best price. Or I stay with the QC or the the new chuck and I am limited with my options.

Lol the CW was never intended to be used as a business tool or " commercial", yet the vasts majority of us do use use it as such! I loved the CW so much I used it over the commercial cnc I own and have sold.

There is so many ways to void the warranty using the Rock or for a business what difference does it make what chuck we use and what is the warranty? After 200 hours or 1 year the machine is ours and we keep it running the best way it works for us! LHR has been great by coming up with updates and new software like the STL and DFX and yes the centerline and the pattern editor. Many have complained about the cost I say this with love.....WAKE UP!

Other cnc machines requires several different programs just to get the machine to work! Then you need software to design and software to for computer to talk to your cnc! Just for my small cnc I paid $100 so the computer can communicate with the cnc and then $500.00 for Corel and $499 for V-Carve Pro and then if I want the latest upgrade it is another $150.00. Now that is about the cheapest route!

So I am thrilled with the designer that comes with the machine and the free upgrades. Plus being able to buy other software like the STL and DFX anf the centerline that works with any font! ( other cnc programs are limited to some fonts) . Yes some have purchased it at $299.00 and now it is $199.00. I don't know about anyone else, but I have bought something at one price only to find it on sale the following week!

All I know under warranty or not the Rock and DC units have allowed me to use my CW without never needing to send it for repair! I hope the same will go for the new chuck. We just need to focus on works for us best and continue to share with each other. Plus thank LHR for their work too and software.

PS sorry for the long post and the if anybody could come with a new board sensor that would be great!

Ike

dbfletcher
05-04-2010, 04:14 PM
Thanks Ron for the clarifications. I cant imagine anyone saying that your stance in not fair or reasonable.

Doug Fletcher

cnsranch
05-04-2010, 04:21 PM
Thanks, Ron - I appreciate it.

lynnfrwd
05-04-2010, 05:11 PM
The CarveWright Warranty is just as it has been.

The question I believe you all have is....

Is the CarveTight considered a consumable item or not? The answer is NO.

All of the legal jargon is in the warranty and you can read it: http://www.carvewright.com/cms/warranty-info

You will not find the CarveTight listed as a consumable because, frankly, there isn't much you could possibly do to damage this new spindle.

Clarification of any 3rd party modification is in there too, forgive me for generalizing and starting a free for all last night before I left work. Anyone that knows me, knows it was a warning out of courtesy and not a scare tactic.

We can appreciate your defense of Ron and his Rock Chuck. The users of this forum are admirably quick to come to each others defense, just as you have many times defended the CarveWright and CompuCarve to nay-sayers.

The Rock Chuck is a fine product and I do not believe LHR has directly given any indication otherwise. It is difficult to compare the differences without someone taking offense to those statements.

The CarveTight is the only LHR authorized after market product. That does not mean the Rock or any other is not good, it is just not LHR's.

We will continue to promote and market the CarveTight as the best! We happen to think it is! The consumer, as always, has the final say so.