Cost Of Doing Business

[CSPURGEON]

Well I have searched and searched, looking for someone with the same mindset as I, Accounting. Sorry to bring business into the CW forum but I figure thats why most of the owners have one either to supplement or to do small projects and make money. So my question is has anyone done the math to what they charge for design, carve, or finish time. I understand that the area where you are located depends greatly on your price structure as I am in Northeast Indiana and understand my prices aren't going to be the same as someone in NY or NJ. I was just curios if what everyone charges.

The main reason is I just sold a sign for $60 and realized after getting into the painting time that it took a lot longer than what I expected making it so the next one I do will most likely be double.

[c6craig]

Well I have searched and searched, looking for someone with the same mindset as I, Accounting. Sorry to bring business into the CW forum but I figure thats why most of the owners have one either to supplement or to do small projects and make money. So my question is has anyone done the math to what they charge for design, carve, or finish time. I understand that the area where you are located depends greatly on your price structure as I am in Northeast Indiana and understand my prices aren't going to be the same as someone in NY or NJ. I was just curios if what everyone charges.

The main reason is I just sold a sign for $60 and realized after getting into the painting time that it took a lot longer than what I expected making it so the next one I do will most likely be double.

Do a search for "pricing" and "costs", things like that. There have been plenty of posts on this with many opinions. Like you mention, many areas is what the market will bear. Your skill level will also play a part. If it takes you a day to paint and finish a sign and somebody else can do it in 2-3 hours, you may not be able to compete with their pricing.

That doesn't mean you can't charge what you believe to be a fair price, just that you may not be able to charge what a pro does, that can knock out things like signs in their sleep.

Good luck to you in your venture.

Craig

[Metalhead781]

I usually charge and average of $30 a shop hour which includes my time, machine usage, utilities etc. I just painted a sign for myself and it took a total of 15 min. with two colors. I masked soft maple with duck brand shelf paper, Carved a recessed boarder with background and some v carved text. The text is one color the background is another. I hit it with a sanding brush on the drill to get rid of any feathers left from the carving. Sprayed the boarder, cleaned the gun and sprayed the text with the second color. Including cleaning it took the 15 min. It's an interior sign so i used acrylic paints. The gun i use is one from Harbor Freight it's called a Detail Sprayer. It was on sale for $10 few weeks ago. Before that i used spray cans to paint. This little gun does a much better job and i only use a little 4gal compressor to run it. It's more like an airbrush on steroids then a spray gun. I have a slightly larger one for spray finishes.

MH

[CSPURGEON]

Craig- It's really not taking me long (3hrs) to paint the sign it was just a matter of I didn't calculate for that much time. I do appreciate your view on it though so I am sure in the future when my skills are tuned I will be able to do things a little faster. Also as far as the search goes I will continue to look but I have tried many keywords and with the broad range of postings its hard to identify one certain topic sometimes.

MH-Thanks for the information. I will check further into the spray painting but just getting into the commerce Im trying to keep cash output low and pay cash for "upgrades" to my shop as I go. I find it interesting you have a flat rate for all factors of the job but I see where it makes things easier!

Again thanks for the information and I hope a few more post their views on the subject

[Metalhead781]

Craig- It's really not taking me long (3hrs) to paint the sign it was just a matter of I didn't calculate for that much time. I do appreciate your view on it though so I am sure in the future when my skills are tuned I will be able to do things a little faster. Also as far as the search goes I will continue to look but I have tried many keywords and with the broad range of postings its hard to identify one certain topic sometimes.

MH-Thanks for the information. I will check further into the spray painting but just getting into the commerce Im trying to keep cash output low and pay cash for "upgrades" to my shop as I go. I find it interesting you have a flat rate for all factors of the job but I see where it makes things easier!

Again thanks for the information and I hope a few more post their views on the subject

Only thing i can add is, get a process down for your shop. Steps from start to finish no matter what you're doing. It will increase productivity. After a while you'll be able to accurately estimate how much time certain projects will take. This gives you the ability to quote prices. If i run into something i've never done before which is rare i give the customer my hourly rate explaining to them that it may take more time then i've quoted and require a non refundable deposit for materials.

Good luck
MH

[c6craig]

Craig- It's really not taking me long (3hrs) to paint the sign it was just a matter of I didn't calculate for that much time. I do appreciate your view on it though so I am sure in the future when my skills are tuned I will be able to do things a little faster. Also as far as the search goes I will continue to look but I have tried many keywords and with the broad range of postings its hard to identify one certain topic sometimes.

MH-Thanks for the information. I will check further into the spray painting but just getting into the commerce Im trying to keep cash output low and pay cash for "upgrades" to my shop as I go. I find it interesting you have a flat rate for all factors of the job but I see where it makes things easier!

Again thanks for the information and I hope a few more post their views on the subject

Hi,

I didn't mean to insinuate that you were not a "pro" or anything, 3 hours to me is pretty darn good! Way faster than me.

When you try the search function on this forum it helps alot if you put quotes around the word, such as "pricing".

Try this post, it may be what you are looking for:
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?t=13229&highlight=pricing&page=4

That one has people talking about pricing pros and cons for by the BF, by the hour, finishing costs, etc.

Good luck,
Craig

[TerryT]

If you haven't already seen this one you might want to take a look. Hope it helps.
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?t=8382&highlight=charge

[CSPURGEON]

Craig- Dont worry about it I didnt take it that way no biggie. It's great to get such quality information from you all!!

Thanks

[Kix]

Just a note, on one of my other far flung ventures I quote pricing based on a "not more than" basis. That way you can hedge your bet a little, and the buyer has a reasonable expectation of cost and can only be pleased when it comes in a little under that price. And i almost always come in under that price by about 10% or so unless the whole deal really hit the crapper. And of course that 10% rule of thumb has some flex in it based upon customer attitude and overall pleasantness.

As you get repeat business you can see that this approach gets very comfortable for the customer.

[CSPURGEON]

Hey thanks for the tip I have never thought of wording it like that. I understand how coming under a certain price range could make people happier.

CHRIS

[CarverJerry]

Kix, that is sorta what I also do and really seems to work well with people. I've also found that looking them straight in the eye when you quote something makes a difference to them, call it body language control. Just my opinion...honesty pays..


CJ

[Kix]

Yep, just dont look em too hard in the eye, people get the feel like your challenging them and can get a little queasy. A smile can go a long way, and for me, it has always been about sincerity.

A lot of people dont want to be the first to put a number out there, as common neogtiating tactics mean you just lost. But I find that I would rather not squeeze every last penny out of the buyer, because then its a painful experience for them and they dont want to come back. So I dont worry about a buck or three if it helps grease the deal. Make partnerships, not customers. Then you can feel comfortable when you ask them to brag your piece up a little and carry a couple of your business cards to help get the word out. And you have to do that with every piece you sell. Maximize your refferal potential. You arent selling wood or corian, you are selling you.

Damn, where'd that soapbox come from? Sorry.

[Ike]

Kix, that is sorta what I also do and really seems to work well with people. I've also found that looking them straight in the eye when you quote something makes a difference to them, call it body language control. Just my opinion...honesty pays..


CJ
Ok I will give my 2 cents worth! I have been making signs for 30 years, I tell you this not to brag, but to let you know I have tried it all! One thing to remember is what we think is a fair price isn't always what the customer thinks is fair!

When making signs we have a little lead way. I buy a 6 inch by 8 foot board of redwood say at $3.00 a board that comes to $12.00. ( If you are in business get a resale license to pay no taxes!) With that 8 foot sign I can make 4- 24" signs 2- 4' signs or 2- 36" and 1- 24" etc. You get the picture!

So what I do is charge by the board foot and not by the hour. Often times we have a project the CW takes 5 hours at best to carve. So is that fair to the customer? Well you may think I have the means and they don't, so yes! The thing is they will will find another sign shop! I hand route and have my CW and a K2 CNC and other shops can make the same sign in less time and for less money.

So I found charging by the board foot works the best for me and is easy to figure. You take the thickness of the board times the width the length and divide it by 144. I.E. the 1" by 6" by 8' board 1" x 6" x 96" /144= 4 board feet. All measurements must be in inches.

So lets say I am going with 4-6" by 24" signs that is one board foot so I charge $36.00 a board foot for a simple residential sign, "The Smiths" that would be $36.00. for a basic black lettered with chop trim finished sign. You can adjust the charge for wider boards as you see fit.

Now lets say they want some artwork? I charge that ala carte! Why because as you know the details vary. If it is a simple pine tree I charge from $3.00- $5.00. If it a horse with little color change $5.00. Now if they want the bass jumping over the lilly pad to get the frog then the price goes to $10.00.

Then if is really detailed and will take many different colors a min. of $25.00 I then let the customer know what is involved and let them make the choice. I assure them I will do great job for them! Normally when you get a higher end request the customer is willing to pay for your talent. It is the person who just wants a sign with their name and don't care what it looks like is the one looking for the best and least price!

Trust me there are more customers out there like that and that is where you make your money! So if you make $36.00 per 6" by 24" and out of that 8' board make 4 that you paid $12.00 plus the finish material is about $8.00. You make a profit of $124.00 for that one board! Total material cost about $20.00

Time per sign with centerline about 20-25 minutes per sign. Then spray paint sign with flat black, just spray letters and edges don't worry about the over spray. Let dry plane or sand total time about 10 minutes per sign. Five minutes is drying time, I use Walmart 96 cent flat black and it dries quick and lasts. Time to spray sign say 3 times I use a water based poly, each coat 2 minutes to spray 6 minutes total and the rest is drying time. Total time per sign approx. 41 minutes!

I think that is pretty good per hour that is about $46.00 bucks! Of course times will vary, but even if each sign took an hour that is $36.00 an hour! If the detailed painting took you another hour, which I don't think it will well $25.00 bucks is not bad and the paint will cost very little. A little secret with detailed artwork apply your main colors first. If there is a lot of green apply it without being worried about getting it on the non green sections. Then apply the second main color and when they dry start filling in the detailed parts with the correct colors.

Well thanks for reading, you can set your price for board foot that works for you and to sell a sign. I use shop rates for furniture refinishing or labor type jobs that works best for me because I am doing the work and I kind of know how long it will take. But with the CW times vary so much per projects it isn't fair to me to charge the customer, when there are other CNC machines that are faster. They may not do a better job they are just faster. Or you may have someone like me that has been hand routing signs for 30 years and I can make carve 3 signs to one from the CW, Again not always as good, but remember the customer doesn't care as long as it has their name on the sign!

Anyway I hope I helped, by no means is my way the best! All I know it is the best for me! Remember to be fair and never under sell yourself!

PS I wrote another post about the same http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?t=13229&page=4

Ike