PDA

View Full Version : disappearing display



karossii
03-29-2010, 04:40 PM
Hi... new to using my carvewright, though I have owned it for over a year I only now am getting a chance to use it... two carves so far; one plaque and one litho sled (cut a 11x14 rectangle 1/4" deep into a 13x24, 3/4" board; leaving in place a bit of wood the the cutting board's handle slips onto)... and since I don't yet have a head for my dust collector to run constantly, I have to stop the carve every now and again to vacuum out the unit.

I noticed on the first carve, the plaque, that after the first time I opened it (by just opening the cover, have read on the forums here it is not really any worse or better than hitting the stop button, despite some doubters), the LCD display showed nothing but a row of solid boxes on the top row and was blank on the bottom.

The carve still ran through fine, I just couldn't see how far it had gone, or if there were any error messages, etc.

For the second carve, the sled, I decided to try using the stop button instead of just opening it. At first this seemed to remedy the situation; I went through 4 stops with no problems; but after the 4th one my display again disappeared as above; top row full of solid boxes and the bottom row blank.

It was nice being able to see the % complete and whatnot, and would be nice to see some kind of message to know the carve is finished properly, not just stopped for some weird reason or whatnot when the machine stops...

Does anyone know what causes this and how I might fix it?

cnsranch
03-29-2010, 05:14 PM
Check the display resolution - little black, circular knob on the keypad.

karossii
03-29-2010, 05:21 PM
Should've mentioned that in the first post; the first response I had when it disappeared was to fiddle with the contrast... all I can do is make those solid boxes darker . . . or make them disappear too. It isn't a contrast issue, but the display just doesn't seem to be sending the data.

rjustice
03-29-2010, 05:36 PM
I think what you are experiencing is a somewhat common issue. Like me, before knowing any better, you are getting very lucky. What is causing the problem is static discharge from your shop vac system. When you stop the machine the display is probably ok, but when you suck the dust out you are probably hearing a clicking sound, much like if you scoot your feet on carpet in the winter when humidity is very low, and then touch something and get a static shock.... It is pretty much the same thing. A couple years ago, there were many people that fried their machine from the static discharge. I was one of the lucky people that only lost my display during that carve. After turning the machine off and back on, it worked again... The second time it happened to me I saw the arc, like a miniature lightning bolt, and knew what was going on...

Hope this helps...

Ron

Digitalwoodshop
03-29-2010, 06:10 PM
My thinking too... Static....

If the situation is not fixed then it will smoke the $300.00 computer....

I have a copper wire with 3 gator clips on each end... Attached to 3 places on my machine and 3 places on the dust collector ground.

AL

karossii
03-29-2010, 08:27 PM
While it is certainly possibly... and probably likely given you guys' experience... well, I haven't heard or seen any static and I am using a 4" hose which is grounded by a wire going back to the DC...

But it is just an open hose with no head attachment or anything; so perhaps it is swirling dust around inside the machine and the static is building up outside of that grounded hose...?

Now I really need to get one of the several DC units which attaches to the CW... I was putting it off to save up for a rockchuck first; but perhaps I shouldn't...

rjustice
03-29-2010, 08:39 PM
Hi Ken,
Do you have a bare copper wire running inside the hose of your dust collector from one end to the other, then attached to the dust collector on one end, and the machine the other ?? This is a good way to ground them to each other... Also, when this happens can you confirm whether you are blowing out, and vac'ing out the machine each time it has happened?? have you checked the readout to see if the display is still working right after you hit the stop button? If so, try starting the machine back up without vac'ing it out... see if it stays on.

Let us know how you come out...

Happy Carving,

Ron

karossii
03-29-2010, 09:54 PM
I can't be sure if it happened while cleaning or if it was before/after I had the vac running... I will pay closer attention if/when it happens again.

And yes, I have a bare copper wire for static discharge...

TIMCOSBY
03-29-2010, 10:34 PM
some static at the end where it first sucks. you can see the shavings standing with the magnetic fields.

Digitalwoodshop
03-30-2010, 01:42 PM
Static can do STRANGE things....

Saw the story on the news this morning that NASA will be helping Toyota find the problem with the run away cars.....

I have a lot of electronic experience being retired Navy Electronics Tech and having a high interest in Electronics and Radio Frequency or RF. I also spent 8 years with SONY doing everything from making Picture Tubes to fixing Play Stations units.

My gut feeling of why the problem is happening with the Toyota Cars is all related to "STATIC CHARGE". All the different materials used to build the car like plastic and rubber acting like a insulator. Two pieces of Metal and a insulator can cause the 2 pieces of metal or 2 wires or group of wires and a insulating material to become a big capacitor..... A Capacitor will hold a charge or difference in potential or voltage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor)

Like shuffling your feet on a carpet and sticking your finger out and touching metal you get a "SNAP" or discharge.....

A Glass Picture Tube in made as a Big Capacitor.... In the manufacturing process, a robot paints carbon inside the picture tube funnel. When I was making Picture Tubes at Sony, my area had 2 Fanuc Robots with a 4 inch paint roller painting carbon on the outside of the picture tube. With the glass in the middle, the 2 carbon areas became a big Capacitor.... That is why a old TV turned off for a year and touch the Anode of the Picture Tube you get knocked on your BUTT..... The inside of the Carbon holds a charge.

Static in cars has been documented in 2 areas.... Plastic Truck Bed Liners.... A Metal Gas Can sitting in the bed of a Pickup Truck on the plastic bed liner with the steel bed of the truck under it builds up a positive charge in the Metal Gas Can. Swing the grounded Gas Pump Nozzle and touch the metal gas can and a spark jumps to the nozzle as the can or Capacitor is discharged... BIG BOOM normally follows.... Bed Liners should have a warning sign on each side warning to put the gas can on the ground.....

The Second Static In Cars is while the car is getting gas pumped into it you get back into your car and wait..... You now build up a charge on YOU like the shuffling the feet on the carpet.... You step out of the car now charged and with rubber shoes you walk up and do that "SNAP" thing as you go to grab the Gas Nozzle.... Big BOOM normally follows.... They say you should touch the metal of the car to GROUND yourself far away from the Nozzle and the gas fumes..... Or just DON'T GET IN THE CAR.....

There are some great Gas Station Videos on line showing this.....

OK... Back to the run away cars..... I believe it will be found that a Static Build up between DIFFERENT sections of the CAR and the Wiring AND the SHIELDING OF COMPUTERS with METAL will hold different charges or different Voltage Potentials causing the Computers to LOCK UP or Like our CarveWright Carving Machine... DISPLAY ERRONEOUS DATA IN THE LCD after vacuuming the wood chips out of the machine or by using a ungrounded dust collection device..... IN the Car Case.... It will be One Computer Talking to another Computer and one "IGNORING" the other because the Ground Reference of the Computer is Raised to a Voltage Potential ABOVE the other.... Computers talk in Binary Language.... a 1 and a 0 or Zero... A High and a Low..... A Binary Capitol A is 01000001. That is low, high, low, low, low, low, low, high.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numeral_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numeral_system)

http://www.tekmom.com/buzzwords/binaryalphabet.html (http://www.tekmom.com/buzzwords/binaryalphabet.html)

It takes 2 things for a computer to talk to another computer and it is called a Hand Shake Routine or in Human.... Outreaching Hand and a "How Are You" and another Human Outreaching Hand shaking it and saying "I am Fine".... That is a Hand Shake Routine and computers do it Thousands of times a second.... There are Timing Clocks in both computers and if the second Human was talking to another human in this example the handshake would only take place when the clock of the second human finished talking to the other person to listen and shake and respond with our example.

So back to the Toyota Cars.... I believe that is the Hand Shake Routine is being messed up between computers do to the Capacitive Charge of the different Metals and insulators of the car and when the computer is sending a "A" or 01000001 in binary and the other computer is seeing 11111111 or all HIGH.... This is because the Voltage reference is raised by the Capacitor Effect.... O' I forgot to mention Binary Logic Voltage Levels..... Back in the 70's when I first started playing around with Computers and Electronic Projects, The IC or Integrated Circuits or Chips were TTL or Transistor Transistor Logic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transis...ansistor_logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor%E2%80%93transistor_logic) . Where 1 and Zero was a 1 = 5 Volts DC and a 0 or Zero = Zero Volts DC or .02 volts DC to be exact... Later there were CMOS Chips or Complementary Metal Oxide Semiconductor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMOS) . As Computers got faster and faster it was decided that a smaller swing in voltage from the positive 5 volts to a Zero took TOO MUCH TIME.... So other "Standards were used with a lower voltage to speed things up.... Here is a Chart of Binary Logic to Voltage.... http://www.interfacebus.com/voltage_threshold.html (http://www.interfacebus.com/voltage_threshold.html)

So to sum up this long RAINY DAY post to what is happening to the cars.... The Capacitor Voltage between the different parts of the CAR AND the Ground LOOP EFFECT are building up and preventing the computers from effectively communicating... It is like having a loud radio playing in the room and you trying to talk to someone..... Your mouth is moving but the receiver is overwhelmed by the loud radio not hearing you... With the Cars, the Computer is Overwhelmed by the Capacitive Voltages and the Car Goes OUT OF CONTROL AND CRASHES and the voltages DISSIPATE or the Radio Stops PLAYING. Now the person can again hear what you are saying as the Loud Music is GONE.... Or the Static is GONE.... That is WHY they cannot pin point the problem. As the Capacitor Parts of the car discharge and everything goes back to normal, ALL the tests show everything NORMAL....

SO until NASA attach's Data BUS Monitoring and logging Equipment to the Car or Cars AND reproduces the same STATIC CHARGES the problem won't be found..... Static and Ground Loop is a elusive problem.

That is my take on the Runaway Cars.... and my name is AL Ursich, Shohola, PA.... 3/30/2010.... Almost April Fools Day.... :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

fwharris
03-30-2010, 02:34 PM
I can't be sure if it happened while cleaning or if it was before/after I had the vac running... I will pay closer attention if/when it happens again.

And yes, I have a bare copper wire for static discharge...

I also had the issue of static using a shop vac with the grounding wire wrapped around the hose. I think it was just the combo of hose type and the amount of dust being sucked up with the high air volume going through the hose.

If using the shop vac make sure you have yourself grounded to the machine while vac it out. Also keep the hose away from the display side of the machine..

Digitalwoodshop
03-30-2010, 02:53 PM
There are different levels of quality in Shop Vac Vacuum hoses.... The Cheapest use just high static plastic. The Best use a Graphite Impregnated Rubber to dissipate the Static Charge to the ground of the metal canister Vacuum.

It depends on what you vacuum up..... Dust and dirt and you get little Zap.... Suck up some wood chips and BIG ZAP.... It is the motion of the Chips through the hose making the ZAP.

The More Plastic in the hose, the more ZAP.:mrgreen:

AL

mtylerfl
03-30-2010, 03:51 PM
...The Best use a Graphite Impregnated Rubber to dissipate the Static Charge to the ground of the metal canister Vacuum...

AL

Hi AL,

Do you have a recommendation (website or store) for a good source of the Graphite Impregnated Rubber vacuum hoses?

LeatherMan
03-30-2010, 04:04 PM
Keep them coming Guy's..... I too am very interested on how to best set up the DC to prevent static. Thanks to all of you with the great advise!;)

PCW
03-30-2010, 05:03 PM
I have been using this type of hose for over a year now and love it. It runs about double in price to that of regular hose.

Just for the heck of it I just measured the resistance of the hose with a ohm's meter.

1" = 1k
10' = 20k


Hi AL,

Do you have a recommendation (website or store) for a good source of the Graphite Impregnated Rubber vacuum hoses?

karossii
03-30-2010, 07:39 PM
I am using a 4" dust collector hose, not a shop vac hose. The DC is 1650 CFM, and while cleaning the carvewright I am only using that one hose; so it is getting full suction... it is possible it is causing little dust cloud storms inside the machine; though I saw nor heard any evidence it was... with the DC running just 6 or 8 feet away, it would be nearly impossible to hear a static shock I think; and I wasn't really looking for sparks inside.

I don't know specifically what the hose is made out of, but I got it at Rockler and it seems to be much nicer than a standard plastic shop vac hose.

Digitalwoodshop
03-30-2010, 09:43 PM
I am using a 4" dust collector hose, not a shop vac hose. The DC is 1650 CFM, and while cleaning the carvewright I am only using that one hose; so it is getting full suction... it is possible it is causing little dust cloud storms inside the machine; though I saw nor heard any evidence it was... with the DC running just 6 or 8 feet away, it would be nearly impossible to hear a static shock I think; and I wasn't really looking for sparks inside.

I don't know specifically what the hose is made out of, but I got it at Rockler and it seems to be much nicer than a standard plastic shop vac hose.


Ground wires from the out feed tray, and any other metal you can clip on and run them to the dust collector....

I have a metal collector on my machine that is painted black... I had a ground slip off the collector but still on the out feed tray.... I was hearing a snap and could see a arc from my collector to the BIT while cutting....

Replaced the ground and all was normal again...

Don't know a source of the hose with Carbon or Graphite...

AL

TIMCOSBY
03-30-2010, 11:52 PM
your on to something with the cars. fw even grounding yourself to the machine didnt help the static i was seeing on the end of the hose. i stay away from the keyboard side.

fwharris
03-31-2010, 12:22 AM
your on to something with the cars. fw even grounding yourself to the machine didnt help the static i was seeing on the end of the hose. i stay away from the keyboard side.


I am very sure you did see static even with the ground wire and being in contact with the machine. I saw the same thing with mine. It is just the product of high volume air pulling the fine dust through the hose. It did not work well for me and that is why I went with the top mount insert with aluminum duct in between the shop vac hose and the insert. Ground wires from the DC to both out feed tables, insert and hoses..

Digitalwoodshop
03-31-2010, 10:11 AM
I CHEAT too... I use UN Efficient Foil Dryer Vent Hose too.... Too many nooks and crannies....

AL

Digitalwoodshop
03-31-2010, 09:58 PM
:DMore STATIC...... LOL.....:mrgreen::roll:


I was a Navy Electronics Instructor for 3 years so I try to find real world things to help explain how electronics works..... I taught the MK 68 Mod 19 Digital Upgrade System mentioned at the bottom.
Students loved this demo....

I taught this thing called a Ring Laser Gyro.... Picture a triangle with a double ended laser on the bottom of the triangle.

It fires the laser out of both ends at the same time. At the corner of the triangle was a mirror that directed the beam up toward the point much like a Laser Engraver.... The beam bounces off the top and back down to the laser to a receiver.

If both beams hit the receiver at the same time then no motion took place.... I would hold a Plastic Triangle from a Pool Table in front of me.... Tell the class that I just fired the laser beam then jump 3 feet to the side still holding the plastic triangle. I would then say that one beam hit the receiver faster then the other because I moved to the left.... That Out of Phase is a indicator of motion. 3 Ring Laser Gyros and 3 Accelerometers and you have a navigational system.....

On the Navy System, turn it on and 30 seconds later it gave you a latitude readout based on it feeling the earth turning..... Pretty Cool.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperry_Marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperry_Marine)

The Sperry Marine Ring Laser Inertial Navigator
The most substantial developments in ship's navigation in the latter half of the twentieth century were the introduction of the Global Positioning System (GPS), and the development of the Ring Laser Gyroscope based inertial navigation system.

The Sperry Corporation had developed the MK-16 Ring laser gyroscope (RLG) based navalized stable element for aircraft carrier use in the late seventies and early eighties. This system was primarily used for the aircraft landings and provided a stable source for ship's attitude information to the glide slope system. The MK-16 also found use on the USS Belknap (prototype) and Charles F. Adams-class destroyers as a stable source for the Mk 68 Mod 19 Gun Fire Control system (digital upgrade).

I wish this picture was available when I was teaching the system but it was classified at the time.... I taught this in 1986

http://edu.nightlase.com.au/lasergyro (http://edu.nightlase.com.au/lasergyro)

I love Technology.... My Last Navy Ship the USS Buchanan DDG-14 used this system. I decommissioned this ship in 91 and our Digital Upgrade System went to another ship.

AL

Picture of me in 85 as a student on the control panel of the Great Lakes, IL School system. I made Chief at the end of the school and they asked me to stay and teach it... Loved Teaching...

Digitalwoodshop
03-31-2010, 10:09 PM
From Sawmill Creek.....

Originally Posted by Jerome Hanby
Why do I get the feeling this will morph into a discussion about static electricity build up in PVC piping with dust collection

Well that is actually where this idea was generated from.... A Discussion about vacuuming the wood chips out of a CarveWright Machine with the power still on mid carve. Many a user using a shop vac and a cheap plastic hose have zapped the computer with static....

CarveWright Forum... My other home....

"No offense to the OP, but I suspect that the thousands of trained engineers at Toyota have probably investigated these elementary possibilities. This is just wild conjecture."

Yes, it is Elementary and "A Wild Conjecture" No offense taken.


Over the years I have seen some wild answers to Technical Problems.....

When I was attending a Navy Radar School in San Diego in 92 on what is called the MK 92 Mod 6 system. They had a problem that didn't make sense.

Over the years of teaching the Radar and Students attaching probes to the back of circuit board sockets making measurements had finally broken this little white wire. It was too short to re-attach. The Instructor knew the TO: and FROM: location of the wire and replaced the wire with a new 3 inch long wire that was colored blue. The rest of the wires were white.

The problem started after the blue wire was placed in the unit. A second instructor inspected the fix and it was proper....

The problem went on for months.... One day the Designer of the Radar was in San Diego and visited the school. A instructor mentioned the problem and the Designer went to look. He opened the drawer looked in the back of the circuit board sockets and saw the blue wire.... He stands up and a Smile came to his face.... He asked about the blue wire.... The Instructor that installed it explained the fix.... The Designer's Smile got BIGGER..... Followed by a SNICKER....

The Designer said that even though the to: and from: destinations of the wire were 3 inches apart he had used 14 feet of wire to make that connection...

There were 3 Computers in that drawer and the strobe or timing cycle needed to be 1, 2, 3, letting each computer talk one after each other as they all talked on a common data bus. So first one talks, then the next, then the last.... To make that "Delay in time" the designer used 3 inches, 7 feet, and 14 feet for the "Delay" between the 3 computers. Taking advantage of the Microseconds of delay in the 7 and 14 feet of wire.... By using the 3 inch jumper between computer 2 and 3 that made computer 2 and 3 talk at the same time. The normally 14 feet of wire was now 7 feet to both computers. Now the computer strobe or timing pulse was computer 1, computer 2&3 then computer 2&3 again... Computer 2 and 3 were talking on the data bus at the SAME TIME.... The 14 foot wire was reconnected and everything was back to normal.... Pretty Wild....

I have spent the last 30 years of my life troubleshooting electronics....

The Last 2 years I was in the Navy I worked at a Microwave Antenna Manufacturing Company in San Diego nights and weekends. I did Calibration and repair on equipment used to make the QualComm Omnitrak Antennas and other RF Gear. This company made the early Omnitrak Antennas that looked like a Taco under the white dome on a 18 Wheeler.


Another theory I have that could be causing the Run Away Cars is a 18 Wheel Trucks with a RADAR Collision Avoidance System.... The Randomness of having a 18 Wheel Truck on your back door with a powerful Radar raising the hair on the back of your neck has crossed my mind.... The RF could be overloading the Computers..... But that still comes back to why wouldn't it happen with other models....

That is why the Capacitive Static Effect is "Car Model" related.... A function of the car design.....

Yes, I have too much time on my hands... Where did you get that Foil Hat.... Might need it if I go out on the road with 18 wheel trucks on the road.... LOL....

AL