The Citole, Project [Archive] - CarveWright Users' Forum

RayTrek

03-15-2010, 11:28 AM

Starts with Air and the dirt – (Make Something Earth)
Add sun, water and seed – (Play Something Earth)
This is my interest in the medieval stringed instrument between the 12th century and the 14th Century and the use of modern day Fabrication.
Woods used;
Left to right; Oregon Maple, Sitka Spruce, Blood Wood, Lace (not used), Morado (Bolivian Rose wood)
I have documented build notes and it is over 4000 words and 40 pictures at present.
The body, neck, peg board, tail end peg trefoil, fret board, sound board center rosette and tail are all carved on the CNC, the pegs are turned and waiting for a peg shaper and hand carving, the bridge is routed, hand carved and sanded and the nut is made of Patagonia rose wood, and the frets are from a pile of expensive tooth pick cut on the band saw and shaped
Shown with nylon strings and will be replaced with Lyon gut strings, the peg tuners will extend from the top of the peg board.
Though it does not have much tension on the strings I did get to hit a couple of notes and WOW! It actually sounds like an instrument, was not sure if I was making a nice looking sculpture or an instrument up to this point:D.
The project is still a week or two from completion. And hope to have a sound recording also for you that are interested.
have a great day ~ Ray

fwharris

03-15-2010, 11:40 AM

Ray,

Fantastic job! It looks like a well designed instrument for any age. Your choice of the different woods add that special detail!

Kenm810

03-15-2010, 12:41 PM

Great Project Ray,

I wasn't farmiliar with the Citole, I had to look it up.
It certainly has a long History
I'll be looking forward to seeing how you do the finish on it.

CarverJerry

03-15-2010, 12:45 PM

Thats really cool looking Ray, nice job, please post it again after you get it finished.

SharonB

03-15-2010, 01:45 PM

Ray...so, this is what has kept you occupied the last few months, as the snow fell on the mountains. It's a great looking instrument and looking forward to seeing it when finished.

liquidguitars

03-15-2010, 02:55 PM

nice work!

LG

mtylerfl

03-15-2010, 03:13 PM

Ray, that looks like a really fun project! I DO want to hear your sound recording when you have the chance. That will be even MORE fun! Thank you for sharing your wonderful projects and inspiration with us.

DocWheeler

03-15-2010, 03:56 PM

chebytrk

03-15-2010, 05:40 PM

Ray,

That is beautiful. Great project that shows off your skills and the CW.
After 38 years, I still mis playing my guitar - of course that old Gibson is now gone. I sometimes wonder if I would have been any good had I played longer.

Sometimes us ol' folks get nostalgic.

Same here Ken. I learned (and still have) a Sears Silvertone guitar that I bought for $20 from my math teacher (1968). 3 of us started learning with songs by The Ventures and kept going. Got better and did quite a few gigs for awhile. I was the first to drop out and left for the military. Our lead player (Brian) stuck with it and went on to play with one of the hottest 70s Southern Rock bands in Texas (Too Smooth). They opened for Ted Nugent, Rush, Foreigner, Jefferson Airplane, Aerosmith and others. He even replaced Stevie Ray Vaughn when he left Stump and decided to go out on his own. Brian then went in to Christian Rock with WhiteHeart and then went country. He now plays with Trace Adkins and is still having a blast. Makes me wonder if I should stayed on and hung in there like he did. Guess it wasn't "in the stars". ha Oh well... Life goes on. Hey, maybe I can make a replica of my Silvertone and have him play it in concert. He told me that he'd like to take my ol' Silvertone out for a couple of concerts just for ol' times sake. He freaked out when he saw that I still had mine since he had sold his many years ago. Course it doesn't stand up against his strats and telecasters : )

rjustice

03-15-2010, 07:06 PM

I am with you guys... I would love to see and hear it once complete. I too used to play, and have a crazy desire to create an instrument at some point. I remember Dad making a D-28 from a Martin kit when i was 5 or 6. Unfortunately he sold it, and the fixtures. I remember being fascinated with it as he built it...
He bought me a small Kay guitar for Christmas, and taught me 3 chords when i was 8. He said if I really wanted to play, I would figure the rest out :). We did a little home luthier majic to the little Kay to make it more playable. This is one of the earliest woodwork moments i remember. We removed the bridge, and made a new one. He let me shape the bridge, and continue to thin it down on the planer until i had the string height where i wanted them. I remember sanding on the rosewood until it was as smooth as a baby's butt! LOL.. It was such a big deal to me at that age!... I ended up playing in a local country band called the "Country Kings" at the ripe age of 16, and thats when Dad gave me his real D-28. I later went on to play in church, and nursing homes after getting married :) . I had to give it up due to sharp pains in the palm of my chording hand about 10 years ago... I really miss it!
Sorry to get off on a tangent, but i love seeing this kind of work... LG, and any others making instruments, I am as fascinated now as i was 40+ years ago!

Thanks for sharing this build with us Ray.... It brings back many good memories! I cant wait to see and hear the end result...

Happy Carving,

Ron

RayTrek

03-16-2010, 09:17 AM

Hello
I cannot express how much all of you have inspired me, with your beautiful projects and stories.
Thanks for stopping by and checking out the fun and if you look close enough you may see a reflection of some detail you have shared. Or the mistakes I have made, all in all I feel every project has something I have learned here applied to many hours of practice.

Added some build pictures and the Templates lay out for the next one that I have named the “Citoleauke” the patterns will be broke out to four MPC files,
Cheers to You! ~ Ray

liquidguitars

03-16-2010, 10:42 AM

Silvertone amps and guitars are in now because Jack Black likes them so do not sell it on the cheep..

Lg

PCW

03-16-2010, 10:47 AM

Ray,

That is awesome and can't wait to see some more pictures.

cnsranch

03-16-2010, 11:43 AM

of course that old Gibson is now gone. I sometimes wonder if I would have been any good had I played longer.

You'd certainly have more dough if you'd have kept the Gibson:rolleyes:

William Blankenship

03-18-2010, 08:10 PM

Starts with Air and the dirt – (Make Something Earth)
Add sun, water and seed – (Play Something Earth)
This is my interest in the medieval stringed instrument between the 12th century and the 14th Century and the use of modern day Fabrication.
Woods used;.......The project is still a week or two from completion. And hope to have a sound recording also for you that are interested.
have a great day ~ Ray

Ray,
Fantastic man. We share a common interest. Can't wait to hear the sound recording.

Bill....

lawrence

03-19-2010, 12:22 AM

man this is simply awesome--
great project and thanks for sharing it
Lawrence

liquidguitars

03-22-2010, 05:10 PM

Ray,
I found this site and liked it..

more info (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/carved.jpg&imgrefurl=http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citole.html&usg=__dDTrcn-ExtFtejAOuLOvYzJ6TYc=&h=350&w=488&sz=46&hl=en&start=279&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=HumBSmLxolZeBM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dvine%2Bcarvings%2Bart%26start%3D273%2 6um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dco m.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GPEA_en%26ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3Di sch:1)

rjustice

03-22-2010, 06:32 PM

RayTrek

03-23-2010, 08:30 AM

Thanks LG
His extensive historical research, build notes and pictures have been a tremendous help in this project.
As well as other master builders and scholars’, I am using his tuning notes to try and figure out the best way to tune it.
With three coats of vinyl sealer 12 coats of String Instrument lacquer. While I am waiting for it to cure before the finish sanding and buffing there are some adjustments that are being sorted out one being a tuner peg may have to be rebuilt. Just keep plucking away at it.
And a view of the first Carve (back side) before the sound cavity is cut out
Cheers~ Ray
PS, LG you are one of those masters I am refering to8)

eelamb

03-23-2010, 07:43 PM

Very nice Ray, you do some fantastic work.

RayTrek

03-28-2010, 09:03 PM

Hello!
Took a day off with a busy work load (good stuff) and put some time in with some polish sanding, wet 600grit and wet 1500, also did the first carve with the next one, the Citole has 6 frets and 13.800” useable string length, this one will be 12 frets with 16.100 string length, the peg board is fun though it is not depicted in any drawings or sculptures, just could not help myself.
Thank you every one for your nice words and interest, and also for all the great post I have seen here lately WOW! Just does not say enough.
Cheers and will talk soon ~ Ray
Ver. 1.162 and like it.

LittleRedWoodshop

03-29-2010, 01:41 AM

Following this thread has inspired me to get back in the shop and get some things finished. Awesome job Ray and thanks for the inspiration. Looking forward to seeing number 2 finished.

RayTrek

03-29-2010, 10:33 PM

Good day
Thanks Jason it is folks like you that inspire me with your great projects and sharing.
I have enjoyed how some share their project as it goes along so I thought I would give it ago with this one, all the details would be too much so here are some pictures of - day two build.
1, is the new tuner pegs turned for Citole #1 had a problem with 1 of them being to warped, I did get to play with some tuning last week I am not as good as some I have heard but still would like to make a sound track for those that are interested.
2, Citole #2 back side bottom/carve, the carve time with optimal was 7hr for both sides, back side depth is .100 and the top side is .700 leaving a .125 bottom sound board without a glue up, I love this machine.
3, is the front side sound cavity.
4, both carves are about 10hr carve time and cut out on the band saw and scroll saw, the new pegs progress and cut and planned 6 lengths of the Sitka spouse, getting a head for #3 sound boards.
5, ready for glue up, that I have done, check out the peg shaper, gives a 30/1 taper, like a big pencil sharpener.
Well a good day and thanks for all the great projects ,
Cheers ~ Ray

RayTrek

03-30-2010, 07:56 PM

Day 3 build,
All the CW carving is done and its sanding build and sanding from here on,
1, is the sound board glued up this morning and mounted on a carrier board and carved by noon, the new rosette did not chip out, cool.
2, fret board, the tail carved and cutout, and pegs turned with some sanding.
All in all another good day,

Cheers8)

eelamb

03-30-2010, 08:10 PM

Ray it is looking good, and thanks for showing the steps you are doing to make the project.

William Blankenship

04-02-2010, 05:56 PM

RayTrek

04-02-2010, 07:36 PM

Hello to you that are interested,
Thank you, Eddie and Bill, was not sure if I was boring every one
Mostly done with Citole #1, seems like all my projects can use some tweaking which many times can take it too far in the wrong direction so I say done with this one for now, had it in the music store yesterday to get a case and I was blousing and excited with the response.
Hard to show how buffed out it is in the pictures but I saw a fly land on it the other day and it flip over and broke its back, now that’s smooth8).
Still working on #2 just sanding details
The zip file has a very small sound recording in .WMA format so that you may hear its potential with someone who could really play.
and yes that is snow in the back ground 4 days in a row, good time to warm up the shop and carve something:-D
Cheers ~Ray

mtylerfl

04-02-2010, 09:10 PM

Hi Ray,

Thank you for keeping us posted on this! It is super fun to see your project 'flesh out'. Thanks also for the short recording - do you take requests?;)

eelamb

04-02-2010, 09:58 PM

Ray, something you should be very proud of, and cherished for years to come. Was wondering if the carvings on the back would effect the sounds, guess not, it sounded good.

rjustice

04-02-2010, 10:18 PM

Ray,
Thank you for taking the time to keep us up to date with pictures and the recording... I really admire your talents! This has been fun thread to follow!

Happy Carving!

Ron

TIMCOSBY

04-03-2010, 12:49 AM

played lap style or regular guitar style?

RayTrek

04-03-2010, 09:59 AM

Good day!
Well woke up to another day with a new blanket of snow it is like winter out there.
Michael, requests; funny I was ask to play something at the guitar shop, that is going to be another learning curve in this project since I can only play by ear and reproduced recorded music of the time period is limited I may have to learn some renaissance which is post medieval and some Celtic sweet song may complement the Citole as well.
Eddie, I was wondering the same thing with the bottom sound board, started with a .150 thickness and sanding it to .100 helped a lot, not to mention the hand spooned Lyon gut strings.
Ron, I had a little scare last year when I let a drill bit touch my index finger and numbed most of it, well after a year of squeezing a tennis ball and trying to play song, it is coming back! PS, I was one of the early people to pick up the Rock; before the ½” model so I will be picking up one from you soon so that I can use the 3/8” straight bit to hollow the sound cavity.
Tim, The instrument is very light guessing at around 8oz the sculpture by Benedetto Antelami, ca.1180, from the Baptistery in Parma, Italy The player uses a plectrum; looks like a fairly heavy arrow shaped one other depictions show light quill plectrums also of the period and plucked from below, and I can see why now, touching the tail with your hand bends the note like a Fender Strat. I am using a pick that I made from the rosewood for now.
Citole #2 thinning the side walls of the sound cavity.
Happy Easter and God Bless
Ray

liquidguitars

04-03-2010, 12:07 PM

Ray,

Nice work!

If you do not mind me saying so, I noticed the neck angle looked a little flat from the side view picture, I would add a little more rake with a belt sander just based on the side photo..

I use about a .125" tilt for a LP neck to body that will lower the strings at the end of the fret board and even improve the tone as the string will have a little more tension.

LG

RayTrek

04-03-2010, 12:37 PM

LG,
Hot tip! Thank you I will use your respectful and expert advice, I gave the peg board a little rake to help with string tension at the fret board nut but had not consider racking the neck I am at a stage with # 2 that I can still do this and will, you have just made the instrument better.
Cheers ~ Ray

LittleRedWoodshop

04-03-2010, 11:23 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPzaaiS-aZA

William Blankenship

04-04-2010, 05:49 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPzaaiS-aZA

Thanks for the video. Sounds like the minstrel is using a gdg'd' tuning. It also sounds like it is tuned an octave above Ray's. Am I wrong?

Bill...

LittleRedWoodshop

04-04-2010, 09:27 PM

but it sounds that way.

RayTrek

04-05-2010, 10:57 AM

Hi,
Cool video that is what I needed to hear, Thanks- and yes had it tuned D, G, b, e I tuned it yesterday to D, G, d’, g’ and a octave higher and it sounds much better,
Well making progress with Citole # 2 and hope to carve Citole #3 top MPC today,
1) Is the brace made/cut long grain of cedar and placed in front of the bridge also not touching the side walls as that will dampen the soundboard.
2) Are the ebony fret inlays shaped and being glued in.
3) Is ebony dust filed into a pile for the rose inlay.
4) Wipe in glue and rub in ebony dust.
5) Sanded.

RayTrek

04-05-2010, 11:06 AM

More Pictures of progress,
6) Sanding over lap off the sound board and fret board.
7) Cut in for a tail nut the gut will dig in the spruce at this spot.
8) Tuner pegs taking shape and started reaming the peg holes.
9) Up to date progress with Citole #2 and Citole #1 size comparison.
Well next is the frets, bridge, and end nut to be made and ho yes shaping and sanding.
Good day to all ~Ray

mtylerfl

04-05-2010, 11:53 AM

Ray,

I am sure enjoying your project(s)! The video inspired me to have a thought today (dangerous for a Monday, in particular)...

I bet the 'musical folks' that participate in Renaissance Festivals would beat your door down if you offered your Citoles for sale. You may already be thinking along those lines...maybe you could set up booths at the Festivals themselves, or recruit an existing vendor and pay a commission.

The possible drawback could be that you would have less time to devote to other projects if you're building a lot of Citoles!

RayTrek

04-07-2010, 11:17 AM

Back with some more up date,
Michael, I really like your idea, the potential is growing, The Citole#2 is for my Wife (MaryJane) and no not what some of you are thinking, she is in a ukulele group of about 25 ladies and has exposure to many other groups of players, any way this will be strung and tuned like the Uku., and for now will name it “Citoleauku”, and seen by many ho may want a custom made instrument for their collection, But you are so right about taking away from the other projects.
Citole # 3,
Exploring other timber possibilities, the body neck and peg board are of Marado rose wood, and the finger board and tail are of, cat eye lace wood, and the sound board and tuner pegs are African Pad auk, with blood wood bridge and nut, I am not sure of what the frets will be, two days progress and even with a mask and hood I have this rash on my fore head and my throat feels a little funny from the red, orange, and black micro dust, just a word of caution using exotic woods.
The idea is to spray the finish on both as it takes about 5 days to spray on and at least a week to cure.
Talk with you soon and have a great day ~ Ray

temler

04-07-2010, 04:01 PM

just awesome design. what a cool look instrument.
Some day i have to try one of those. I been telling my dad i would try to make him a mandolin, his just loved his old one but his x-wife destroyed it before she left, but i think it was worth it just to get rid of her. Does anyone know of plans for a mandolin that i could make on my machine. Dad would love that. I would make this one for him but with him have the start of Alzheimer he not to good at doing new things but old stuff like the mandolin and the piano he has no problem so i thought this could be help for him. have you guys seen a mandolin ptn any where, Thanks
Tim

and again the job on this one was awesome. great job keep up the great work.

William Blankenship

04-08-2010, 11:16 AM

Just awesome!!! Keep 'em coming. This is truly an inspiration.

You could sells these as kits so people could construct their own. Have kits available at renaissance fairs as well as constructed instruments. I'm sure you would sell them.

Getting back to the tuning issues....the lowest octave G is the same as that of a mandolins' lowest octave G, right? Do you think the citole could withstand tuning to that of a mandolin, using a single course of steel strings, without having some sort of neck issue? And Michael thought he was dangerous thinking <grin>. I have some renaissance guitar music that the melody can be played on mandolin and violin.

Bill...

RayTrek

04-20-2010, 09:08 AM

Good Day,
Here is the progress so far, I was able to string up the Rose yesterday to a D,G,B,E, sounds good so onward I press with detail, sanding and finish coats, while I have been working on the Citoles I also have been carving some POM’s so I have 5 projects going at the same time, had lost a baring in my band saw and was able to fix it yesterday so I can move on to finish some cuts, I will show the results to you soon as I can get to it.
PS, to LG/LV, I really like the taper in the neck, I gave the Rose a little more taper on the peg board and tapered the neck .100 from the body to the end nut, Thanks
Another PS finally got a picture of the tree rat dinning to cool8)
Cheers ~ Ray

toocwhatisaw

04-20-2010, 08:05 PM

Looks great!

DocWheeler

04-21-2010, 08:10 AM

Ray,

Those are great looking projects, thanks for the pictures.
Only downside is that it makes my current projects look bad!

LittleRedWoodshop

04-21-2010, 04:33 PM

awesome job ... every one that I see looks better than the last

RayTrek

04-22-2010, 08:49 AM

Thanks, toocwhatisaw, and welcome to the community.
Ken, I cannot wait to see your projects as being one of my mentors your projects have inspired me more then I can count, I think we share one thing in common I am my worst critic but never give up.
Jason, thanks so much it has been quite the ongoing learning experience and I may be letting the cat out of the bag, that you are the proto type tester of the build notes and design files, I hope to see your progress some day, let me know if you are still working towards this project and if you are not started yet, I can set you up with the new ones if interested the 12 fret 15” scale length adds more options.
There has been a couple of challenges for me one being making the frets, I literally have many rose wood tooth picks, first cut out on the band saw then each one hand shaped,
Thanks again every one that is interested, though there are some more advance wood working skills involved the Carvewright CNC machine and designer with the expert knowledge acquired here has played a major roll.
Good day to all ~ Ray

LittleRedWoodshop

04-25-2010, 09:01 PM

I am actually back on the road for just a few more weekends ... then I am going gang busters on this project (ordered the extra tools that I need). I am almost done with the "Tongue Drum" project and I will sending you the files. BTW I sent you a private message.

RayTrek

04-26-2010, 09:01 AM

Hi Jason,
Very exciting. Look for the new designs in a few days I was looking at them this morning and the .63 version has changed them so I may have to wait just a bit for the fix.
The Zip is a recording of the Rose Citole #3, I have this little mic. That came with one of my computers as you can tell, you may have to turn it up a little to hear. I am happy with the sound was a little worried with using Pauduk for the sound board, the tune is D,G,B,E
Citole #2 is sprayed 12 coats and curing for at least a week before polish sanding and #3 is getting sprayed no more than 4 coats in a day
Ray

Kenm810

04-26-2010, 09:18 AM

Very Rich Looking Ray, http://forum.carvewright.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
And the little Mic wooked fine!
Thanks for Sharing :grin:

LittleRedWoodshop

04-26-2010, 09:43 AM

sounds great .... very nice job.

RayTrek

05-04-2010, 09:16 AM

mtylerfl

05-04-2010, 04:27 PM

William Blankenship

05-23-2010, 07:00 PM

Good day
Back with some more updates, I finished #2 CitoleaUku and MaryJane loves it, #3 Rose is almost ready to start the polishing, and started #4 Spring Flower I used Bill Blankenship rosette and a scroll pattern from one of the POM, also refurbishing my lute style “Rex” Mandolin made by “Gretsch”.
Cheer!

Looks good. Glad you could use it. Actually the credit for the rosette should go to Baltasar Silvius of the 16th century. I just traced it. The sound bite sound great man. Thanks!! That is a very useful tuning. I have some Renaissance guitar music if you need it. I'll be happy to share it with you.

Bill...

RayTrek

05-24-2010, 10:15 AM

Good Day every one,
I cannot begin to tell you how much fun these have been for me, from research to designing, building, and putting strings on and playing a tune Fun! I was able to put strings on #4 yesterday and finish design work for #5 that is going to challenge me even more, hope to carve on it today with being on hold for some other jobs for a couple of days.
Bill, I have seen the rosette before but was not sure ware, so I used yours with some modifying and added some to it, thanks for posting it, as for the sheet music, I have played string instruments since I was 7 and never learned how to read music, cords I have learned though, I do have a friend who does and would help me, so I would love to have some of your Renaissance guitar music, I will PM you,
Thanks again for looking and hope to have planes soon, seems that the fun part of building gets in the way of documentation.
Cheers! ~Ray