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Capt Bruce
02-28-2010, 09:59 AM
Fellow Forum Rabble,

I finally got past the rush of signs and plaques I've been making (six months of designs built up in Designer while I waited to pay off my machine in Lay A Way). Now I get around to setting up a scanning sled and reading the various posts and instructions/video and I have a problem.

I've long wanted to reproduce an eagle with crossed flags that I designed and carved by hand years ago and it was going to be my first project when I bought a Duplicarver. The CarveWright in the end won out for it's advanced features like scanning. The problem is I'm ready to scan and it's just a bit too big for the CarveWright. Wing to wing tip it is 22.5 inches by 14 inches tall (wide) by 3/4 thick. No way I can see to pass it through on a sled with 13 inch max width.

Looking for ideas or a member/source where I can send the carving and have it accurately scanned, to then scale the pattern down to a board width that will fit into the CarveWright and proceed to make sawdust. I realize I could make larger versions by carving on multiple boards but we'll look at that later.

A view of the carving over my front door.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h32/ohneplo/Misc/MyPictures0003.jpg

I'd appreciate any suggestions or leads because I recognize when I just can't "Do It Yourself." Thanks as always and I really appreciate the advice and guidance offered here among friends.

PCW
02-28-2010, 10:17 AM
Bruce,

I think you would be able to scan that piece if you use metal angle (L shaped) on the sides of your sled rather than wood. This would give you a little extra clearance. Just a though

Capt Bruce
02-28-2010, 12:01 PM
Thanks PCW,

Maybe I'm not reading the prior threads on scanning sleds correctly or my math is off. I saw a prior mention of using metal side rails but I was under the impression that two constraints still applied.

1. The Scanning Sled plan from CW was noted as 14 1/2" max width. If the metal side rails were each say 3/16" thick that's 3/8" from 14 1/2" or max interior width now 14 1/8".

2. The object to be scanned had to be 1/2" away from the inside edges of the sled rails. If the item being scanned must remain 1/2" away from the rails to avoid damage to the probe body then I'm down to a max width (height) of 13 1/8" for the 14" tall eagle & flags.

Q. Am I reading in too many constraints in trying to design this sled?

Q2. Will a narrow rail top like the metal (3/16") do any harm to the top rollers when they are cranked down to secure the sled for running?

Q3. I intend to use a melamine faced (2 sides) shelf board from HD as the sled body. I read it should have tape applied along the bottom brass-roller edge to give it proper "tooth" for measurement and had planned to also add tape strips to the center and other bottom edge so the sandpaper belt has some tooth as well. Yes or no?

I do appreciate your response and any other thoughts as I learn this craft.

bjbethke
02-28-2010, 01:04 PM
Fellow Forum Rabble,

I finally got past the rush of signs and plaques I've been making (six months of designs built up in Designer while I waited to pay off my machine in Lay A Way). Now I get around to setting up a scanning sled and reading the various posts and instructions/video and I have a problem.

I've long wanted to reproduce an eagle with crossed flags that I designed and carved by hand years ago and it was going to be my first project when I bought a Duplicarver. The CarveWright in the end won out for it's advanced features like scanning. The problem is I'm ready to scan and it's just a bit too big for the CarveWright. Wing to wing tip it is 22.5 inches by 14 inches tall (wide) by 3/4 thick. No way I can see to pass it through on a sled with 13 inch max width.

Looking for ideas or a member/source where I can send the carving and have it accurately scanned, to then scale the pattern down to a board width that will fit into the CarveWright and proceed to make sawdust. I realize I could make larger versions by carving on multiple boads but we'll look at that later.

A view of the carving over my front door.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h32/ohneplo/Misc/MyPictures0003.jpg

I'd appreciate any suggestions or leads because I recognize when I just can't "Do It Yourself." Thanks as always and I really appreciate the advice and guidance offered here among friends.
I would not think you would be able to make a direct scan the 13 inches, I think the scanning probe would hit the edges of your scanning sled. I think you would need to make an undercut in the side rails to fit the tail and scan it in two parts. It would be very easy to put those parts together in the Pattern Editor. Maybe lots of pain but Your a “Capt Bruce” and most Capt's can do a lot do things, you keep us all safe.

c6craig
02-28-2010, 01:09 PM
Capt Bruce,

Since it doesn't look like that piece is exactly square, could you build the max size sled and fit your piece in diagonally?

Craig

mtylerfl
02-28-2010, 01:33 PM
Capt Bruce,

One approach might be to use your band saw (or scroll saw or hand coping saw) and cut the eagle free from the flag and scan the two pieces separately. Carefully done, you shouldn't have any trouble gluing, filling and re-painting the pieces back together.

Be aware that the probe will likely 'scratch' the paint as it scans, so it's probable you will need to do some touch-up after the fact anyway.

Yet another approach is contact www.go3D.us (http://www.go3D.com) and see if they can make a pattern for you based on your photo!

PCW
02-28-2010, 01:52 PM
Hi Capt,

I'm not the best person to answer your questions on scanning because I have not done much of it. I just remember the post where the L sides was suggested. I was just putting the idea out there.

By the way nice job on the original.

Nighthawk12
02-28-2010, 08:25 PM
If you look at the rollers they are 17" wide. You could route out the bottom on each side of the sled enought to clear the guide plates. and make the sled wider than 14.5 and still have 3/4" wide side rails I wouldn't try to carve like this but scaning it might work.

TIMCOSBY
02-28-2010, 10:41 PM
and you can scan right up to the angle iron with out a problem. i would use some kind of plywood instead of the melamine it is pretty slick on the bottom or get one sided melamine. if it will go in the sled with 1/8" to spare on each side you are good to go i just did it. once you get the plastic tip glued on set the probe down next to the side and check to see if it clears the body. i ground down that little lip on the top of the tip too to get all the side clearance i could.

DocWheeler
03-01-2010, 09:53 AM
Just a thought - if the sled was shallow, say 1", then the "body" of the probe would not be a problem perhaps.

TIMCOSBY
03-06-2010, 03:34 AM
i got some pics that might help others too. will post as soon as i reduce their size.

Capt Bruce
03-06-2010, 08:04 AM
Good morning Tim,

I see we're both at it fairly early this morning. I appreciate the advice you and other Forum members have provided.

I'm going to build the scanning sled this morning with plywood and some shallow aluminum L channels picked up this week. My plan is to horizontally extend part of each L out beyond the 14 1/2" max width to extend the flat area where the eagle will lay. Then with the "sled" assembled just with tape, to place it in the CW machine holding the carving and move the mounted probe to the measuring limits and check that nothing "bumps."

In theory it should work so I'll take it slow and see what comes out of this first experiment.

I had a chance to look at and admire your dragon and cherub scans. We may be doing some business over these patterns. Have you found that website to be a viable method of selling these scans?

Wish me luck.

Capt Bruce
03-06-2010, 07:00 PM
On my scan sled that is . . .

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h32/ohneplo/IMG_0783.jpg

With the helpful advice received here I made a sled this morning and after lots of careful measurements determined it should work without any unwanted contact within the CW or danger for the probe/scan unit.

The 1/2" plywood body is 14.5" wide and 1/8" by 1" aluminum L rails are mounted on top with the upper flange extending 1/8" + a hair outside the sled edges. This gave it enough room to have the probe stay 1/8" away from the inside of the rails. I also drilled the rail upright legs so that I can easily attach other wider/taller wood rails as needed to scan deeper objects in the future.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h32/ohneplo/IMG_0785.jpg

The eagle is now going through a 25 hour predicted scan at best quality so we'll see tomorrow if "the best laid plans o' mice and men . . ."

I was warned the steel scan probe might scratch the original eagle finish but that is going to be a good thing in the end. My ten year old gilded finish had weathered unevenly so this is giving it a nice detail sanding job and getting down into all those carved lines and feathers. It does not seem to effect the painted finish of the flags. Synergy comes in strange ways.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h32/ohneplo/IMG_0787.jpg


One final question from a newbie scanner. The CW sounds like a quiet coffee grinder while it is scanning and the probe is moving. Is that fairly normal? I've never heard it operate except while carving so I have no basis for comparison.

My thanks to all who offered tips and advice. The collective wisdom of this Forum's members is just invaluable. Again please wish me luck and we'll see by tomorrow what comes of all this.

c6craig
03-06-2010, 10:46 PM
Wow, looks great Capt. Bruce! Nice pictures too, I have a feeling there are going to be some people re-doing their scanning sleds soon...

Good luck with the long scan and I hope it comes out great!

Craig

Capt Bruce
03-07-2010, 08:58 AM
Morning Craig,

Running smoothly and 75% complete this morning. Should be able to see the end result of the scan early afternoon.

DocWheeler
03-07-2010, 09:08 AM
Capt Bruce,

Looks like you whipped the original problem! To answer your "coffee grinder" question - yes. The Z drive just becomes a small jack-hammer while scanning.

I had two concerns while viewing your sled that may not bite you but give me pause. I assume that you found that you were too near the edges of the rollers to make extensions - I would be concerned with damaging the rollers with such a small surface area. Second - I did not notice any tape sticking out the end, Al needs the money, hopefully you had tape for the brass roller to work with!

Capt Bruce
03-07-2010, 05:07 PM
Another step in the learn by doing process. Doc, thanks for the description of the jack-hammer. Very appropriate and reassuring. The scan completed after 26 hours and the image loaded up to my PC this afternoon.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h32/ohneplo/EagleScan.jpg

Now to learn about cleaning up an image as every stroke of the paint brush was recorded giving some unintended surface flaws. The carving details came out crisp and clean with the exception of some feather checks.

I had addressed both concerns you raised above Doc by very lightly loading the roller pressure so it would not damage the top rollers against those edges and fully supporting the 48" long sled outside the machine. Did a brief scan test and then checked the rollers. In future 3/4" wide rails will be attached inside the aluminum rails (pre-drilled) to better spread the loading on the rollers. After the long scan period I re-inspected the rollers and no grooving to be seen so I think I jumped that shark.

And yes the bottom of the sled (roller-side) had blue painters tape to keep Al's profits coming in. (By the way I too own 3M stock.)

Next step will be a half size carve to see how it translates going back into wood and continued clean up. I'll see if there is interest in this design by others and how to market a pattern to the CarveWright community. Advice appreciated and I'm reading the applicable threads on the Forum.

Thanks again for your interest and advice along the path. Grasshopper appreciates the wisdom of all.

TIMCOSBY
03-07-2010, 11:15 PM
smoothing is better done in a graphics program rather than the p.e. blur tool. you cant adjust the blur tool in p.e.
when you save the scan saveas and pick png then edit in another program bring it back and look then go back for more work etc etc.
nice pattern.
you may be able to add the wood to the outside of the alum. too.

Capt Bruce
03-11-2010, 04:42 PM
Finally had the time to do a test carving (3 1/2 hrs) from the scan completed last Sunday. It scaled down nicely to an 18 x 12 x 1" and the reproduction is very faithful to the original. The individual feathers carved better than I expected. You be the judge.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h32/ohneplo/IMG_0008-1.jpg

I'll have to do some pattern tweaking because of the draft caused by the taper of the carving bit (made the 2 flagpoles too thin on top) but those problems should be easily fixed. A few V cuts will also be re-carved by hand to sharpen up what the 1/16" bit cannot reach.

Now to learn about cutouts, placing tabs and glue up some wider stock for a full size carve. My thanks again to all those who have coached me through this starting with the scanning process. It's really nice to have helpful friends walking with you on this journey.

dbfletcher
03-11-2010, 05:04 PM
The looks realy nice! Great job!

Doug Fletcher

rjustice
03-11-2010, 08:18 PM
Very Nice work Capt Bruce!

Thanks for sharing the whole project with us. I really like the flag detail in your original carving. It looks like the scan picked up that detail very nicely as well....

Happy Carving!

Ron

TIMCOSBY
03-11-2010, 09:21 PM
set at optimum might help with the flag poles but you may have allready done that.

Capt Bruce
03-11-2010, 10:35 PM
Thanks Doug, Ron and Tim,

I appreciate your kind words. I thought about using optimum but that would have been an 8 1/2 hour carve instead of 3 1/2 and I wanted to see what the surface quality would be with fairly raw data before I begin cleaning up and tweaking the pattern. The Rock Chuck proves itself a winner again. Thanks again for walking along beside me.

TIMCOSBY
03-12-2010, 12:40 AM
set at the highest. it wont make the carve longer. only do it after you have everything designed and are done cause it will slow the computor down some. as far as carving setting at optimum it is unreal no sanding hardly at all. i dont carve anything anymore on anything less than optimum unless its like yours a test just to see. i like it. it should sell too.

ChrisAlb
03-12-2010, 10:47 AM
Simply beautiful!! I'm glad you worked out the sled design. I have done the same thing for a long time.

I can fit 14.75 in my CW. Don't know if that's normal but it's always been. So I have a 14.5 sled and use the blades from two 4 foot T-squares (1/4 thick) as the rails.

But I'm most impressed with your "hand carving" sir!! The CW only copied YOUR fine work. VERY NICE!! http://forum.carvewright.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

rjustice
03-12-2010, 01:17 PM
Capt Bruce...
Forgive me for getting off on a bit of a tangent here, but this applies to something that i notice on your scan v/s your carve of that same detail. From the day i started working with the Probe, it kind of surprised me that the stylus was so sharp and pointy... Here is my theory, anyone feel free to shoot it down if you know any different...

The carving bit we are using has a 1/16 ball tip on it plus the taper on the side of it. So it makes sense to me that any shape that the stylus of the probe picks up would be over cut by any amount bigger the tool is than the stylus. Considering that it is almost a dead sharp point, you are litterally overcutting about 1/32 per side, plus the amount of the taper. It makes sense to me that if the sylus was the same shape as the carving bit, you would get a near exact duplicate of whatever you scan. I think the detail of what you see in the pattern would be far less sharp, but in reality it doesnt make any difference because the tool can only carve as sharp as the tip anyway.. I am thinking about making a nylon sleeve that slips up onto the probe that is the same shape as the tool to test this theory.

How this applies to this thread, is the Captain's comment on having to rework the flag poles. I think this would eliminate the need to do any of the rework..

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Ron

TIMCOSBY
03-12-2010, 04:23 PM
with the plastic glue tips on and it will be worn down to just about the right size as the carving bit.

Capt Bruce
03-13-2010, 10:59 AM
Capt Bruce...
The carving bit we are using has a 1/16 ball tip on it plus the taper on the side of it. So it makes sense to me that any shape that the stylus of the probe picks up would be over cut by any amount bigger that the tool is than the stylus. I think the detail of what you see in the pattern would be far less sharp, but in reality it doesn't make any difference because the tool can only carve as sharp as the tip anyway..
Thanks,

Ron

Ron,
I couldn't have said it better. I'm going to pick up, and try using the same method covering the probe with an extended model airplane glue tips, mentioned in TIMCOSBY and other's posts when I scan my next hand carved piece. That piece of mahogany cannot undergo the surface abrasion the eagle experienced. I'll report the findings so we can compare notes. Thanks as always

CarverJerry
03-13-2010, 11:59 AM
Ron, I have to agree with you 100% about the 1/16 Rad on the tool vs the probe tip nose rad. When using a tracing attachment on a lathe or VTL we always use the same configuration on the stylis as what the tool is. That is just a common rule in the machine shop for tracing.
Can you tell me if the protective tips that are available on the CW site have the 1/16 nose radius?

eelamb
03-13-2010, 02:54 PM
Ron I agree with you, if your cutting bit is 1/16 ball nose, then why is the probe so small and sharp. Some of the details the probe picks up will be lost in the carve.

rjustice
03-13-2010, 03:40 PM
Ron, I have to agree with you 100% about the 1/16 Rad on the tool vs the probe tip nose rad. When using a tracing attachment on a lathe or VTL we always use the same configuration on the stylis as what the tool is. That is just a common rule in the machine shop for tracing.
Can you tell me if the protective tips that are available on the CW site have the 1/16 nose radius?

Hi Jerry,
No tips available yet, but i think this is something i need to get on the long list of "Must Do's"... I think i have a mold at work that i could convert to this cavity arrangement somewhat quickly... I will have to look this over on Monday.

CarverJerry
03-16-2010, 09:39 AM
I went to order a set of tips for the probe and couldn't believe they wanted 21 dollars to ship it. That is bazar and unheard of. Ron when are you going to see about making some of these? Does any one out there want to sell one of these tips, if so drop me a message with total amount and we'll deal. I know I sound cheap but I'm on a fixed income and have to look out for my expenses..... thanks
carverjerry

cnsranch
03-16-2010, 09:49 AM
I'm probably behind the curve on this thread, but I got the glue tips shown below at Hobby Lobby for $2.00.

They work great, and at that price, you can afford to toss them often.

chebytrk
03-16-2010, 09:58 AM
I'm probably behind the curve on this thread, but I got the glue tips shown below at Hobby Lobby for $2.00.

They work great, and at that price, you can afford to toss them often.

So do you just place these over the existing plastic scanning tip?

cnsranch
03-16-2010, 10:01 AM
So do you just place these over the existing plastic scanning tip?

Yep - they snug right on....

Capt Bruce
03-16-2010, 10:28 AM
Hi Concept, Low Tech, workable solution at reasonable cost. "I love it when a plan comes together" as the saying goes.

eromran
03-16-2010, 10:49 AM
Yep - they snug right on....

Also by using the longer tips you can scan much thicker items. Make a sled with higher rails on the rail on the keypad side you will need to notch down about 3/4 in so when the machine homes the tip wont hit the rail. Don't make it very wide though just enough for tip to make it through or it will cause the roller to release. This will allow you to scan something 2 7/8 in thick (if you make your rails 2 7/8 above bed of sled) or just the top part of something that is thicker. If you make the rails much higher the probe won't go all the way to sled bed.

CarverJerry
03-16-2010, 12:08 PM
Thanks guys

TIMCOSBY
03-16-2010, 11:04 PM
of hot glue to secure the glue tips on had one fall off half way though carve. when there worn out you just pull off. i have also used two glue tips to get deeper into the object.

jeanlee411
05-09-2010, 12:34 AM
I'm probably behind the curve on this thread, but I got the glue tips shown below at Hobby Lobby for $2.00.

They work great, and at that price, you can afford to toss them often.

I went to order a set of tips for the probe and couldn't believe they wanted 21 dollars to ship it. That is bazar and unheard of. Ron when are you going to see about making some of these? Does any one out there want to sell one of these tips, if so drop me a message with total amount and we'll deal. I know I sound cheap but I'm on a fixed income and have to look out for my expenses..... thanks
carverjerry