inaccurate drilling

[Armybrat]

I'm trying to make a cribbage board but the holes are off. I've tried cleaning the heck out of the machine and lubing everything I can think of. The holes are lined up in designer with 'snap objects to grid'.

LHR said to update firmware, adjust sandpaper belts and call back if that doesn't work... it got a little better, but definitely not like it should be. The picture attached shows a close up of the board as it would be sitting in the CW, viewing from the control panel.

The last 6 attempts have screwed up at least 4 holes and unfortunately ruins the whole project. Any ideas???

I've just ordered the rubber belts and the Rock hoping that will help - cuz it sure couldn't hurt!!!:-D

...Mad in Minnesota

oh yeah, I might be imaginging things, but it seems to be worse with Cherry rather than oak.

[c6craig]

Are you using the masking tape on the bottom of the board? When I run cherry it wants to slip like crazy on the tracking roller unless I use it...hard and slippery wood...

Also make sure your rubber O ring is in good shape and where it should be on the tracking roller...

Craig

[Armybrat]

I haven't tried the masking tape lately - I'll try now...

[c6craig]

Give it a shot and let me know how it goes, I know I have never had luck with cherry without it...the tiniest slip and it's instant firewood...

Good luck,
Craig

[AskBud]

I'm trying to make a cribbage board but the holes are off. I've tried cleaning the heck out of the machine and lubing everything I can think of. The holes are lined up in designer with 'snap objects to grid'.

LHR said to update firmware, adjust sandpaper belts and call back if that doesn't work... it got a little better, but definitely not like it should be. The picture attached shows a close up of the board as it would be sitting in the CW, viewing from the control panel.

The last 6 attempts have screwed up at least 4 holes and unfortunately ruins the whole project. Any ideas???

I've just ordered the rubber belts and the Rock hoping that will help - cuz it sure couldn't hurt!!!:-D

...Mad in Minnesota

oh yeah, I might be imaginging things, but it seems to be worse with Cherry rather than oak.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your photo appears to be Plywood. Am I correct?
How thick is it (not what the label says, but what it really measures)? Are you placing this plywood on a sled?

If not Plywood, it could be that the moving squaring plate is binding on the wood, or the wood is too slick.
AskBud

[Armybrat]

tape didn't seem to change anything. It is 3/4" Cherry...not ply... just the outer/whitish rings. I also reset the square plate. It does it on different pieces so I'm pretty sure it isn't warped or tapered...
It does this weird hesitation after it drills... tracking moves back and forth a few mm then drills the next hole.

[AskBud]

Please attach your MPC.
AskBud

[dbfletcher]

tape didn't seem to change anything. It is 3/4" Cherry...not ply... just the outer/whitish rings. I also reset the square plate. It does it on different pieces so I'm pretty sure it isn't warped or tapered...
It does this weird hesitation after it drills... tracking moves back and forth a few mm then drills the next hole.

Do you know what your head pressure is? My behave's like that sometimes if the head pressure is too great. When I see it doing that I just back the crank off about an 1/8 of a revolution. I guess I kinda of work mostly off sound these days. I cant really quantify it.. but I know what it sounds like when everything is working right... and when it is strugglin... it definately has a different sound.

Doug Fletcher

[Armybrat]

MPC attached


Please attach your MPC.
AskBud

[AskBud]

I agree with Doug as to too much pressure being one possible source of the problem.
AskBud

[Armybrat]

So how many 'clicks' do you generally do?

[AskBud]

So how many 'clicks' do you generally do?

I do 3 or 4, unless the machine tells me to load the board. Like Doug said, it's a feel we get.

Are these errors right at the beginning? That is what it looks like from the pic & MPC.
AskBud

[Armybrat]

it's mostly at the beginning of the project, but it is quite random.

[Armybrat]

I just tried less head pressure, then more... still no luck. I don't have a scale to check the actual pressure right now.

[Digitalwoodshop]

OK.... Humor me.... I changed your mpc. Removed the restraint on the single hole... ALways remove all the restraints when you are done laying out the project. A Restraint can cause a real problem if the board is even .25 wider than the Designer board. At least that is MY suggestion....... Now for the board....

DO This.... Cut a 24 inch long for your 17 inch project and center the project on the board and select to NOT stay under rollers. The Extra 7 inches of physical wood will keep the 17 inch project held FLAT to the sand paper belts and the Brass Roller.

ALSO Cover the bottom of the Maple with 4 strips of Masking tape from end to end.... Brass Roller and 3 others..... "A board foot of masking tape is always cheaper than Cherry...."

Looking at your pictures and the holes are off in the X or length direction correct? All this will fix the hole problem IF you do it all.....

IF the holes are off in Width then I expect the Y Belt is LOOSE.... I snug it with my finger and tighten the screw that holes the right side idle pulley and the cut motor wire cover. To make this easier I drilled a hole in the top cover and use a long screwdriver.... Easier than fighting with a 90 degree screwdriver....

Give it a try... Keeping the wood under the rollers and tight to the table is important.... Once the board pops out from under one roller it can pop up and the brass roller keeping track of the board in length will get messed up.

As for the Right Side Guide.... It should NOT touch the right side of the board.... I use the thickness of a Quarter as the distance between the board and right guide... As long as the 1/8 inch bit can touch the metal when it checks board thickness.... If It touches it binds and could change the X tracking.

You could possible have a ROLLED belt too.... They are hard to see, if the belt is missing on the far side it must go somewhere.... It could roll under....

Trust me... I am a Retired Navy Chief....
AL

[AskBud]

I see the hesitation(s).
It appears to be inherent in the machine code. It may be to allow the bit to cool as it happens about every 4 to 7 holes. I could be a feel for the hardness it must work to penetrate the stock.

No holes are out of line, however, I used wider stock than the design and "Centered" on the board.
AskBud

[Digitalwoodshop]

Good Job AskBud,

So the file cuts good...

Did you have wood under the rollers all the time?

AL

[AskBud]

Not quite, I was 1/2" short of 24".
AskBud

[Armybrat]

OK.... Humor me.... I changed your mpc. Removed the restraint on the single hole... ALways remove all the restraints when you are done laying out the project. A Restraint can cause a real problem if the board is even .25 wider than the Designer board. At least that is MY suggestion....... Now for the board....

DO This.... Cut a 24 inch long for your 17 inch project and center the project on the board and select to NOT stay under rollers. The Extra 7 inches of physical wood will keep the 17 inch project held FLAT to the sand paper belts and the Brass Roller.

ALSO Cover the bottom of the Maple with 4 strips of Masking tape from end to end.... Brass Roller and 3 others..... "A board foot of masking tape is always cheaper than Cherry...."

Looking at your pictures and the holes are off in the X or length direction correct? All this will fix the hole problem IF you do it all.....

IF the holes are off in Width then I expect the Y Belt is LOOSE.... I snug it with my finger and tighten the screw that holes the right side idle pulley and the cut motor wire cover. To make this easier I drilled a hole in the top cover and use a long screwdriver.... Easier than fighting with a 90 degree screwdriver....

Give it a try... Keeping the wood under the rollers and tight to the table is important.... Once the board pops out from under one roller it can pop up and the brass roller keeping track of the board in length will get messed up.

As for the Right Side Guide.... It should NOT touch the right side of the board.... I use the thickness of a Quarter as the distance between the board and right guide... As long as the 1/8 inch bit can touch the metal when it checks board thickness.... If It touches it binds and could change the X tracking.

You could possible have a ROLLED belt too.... They are hard to see, if the belt is missing on the far side it must go somewhere.... It could roll under....

Trust me... I am a Retired Navy Chief....
AL

Okay, I cut a new board to exactly 24". Planed, Jointed, masked the whole thing, reset calibrations... I chose not to stay under rollers, used 4 clicks head pressure...

Here's the pics that I came up with... Holes that are messed up are circled in black. The zoomed out pic shows the randomness - although yes all 'X axis'.

The Navy part is what I don't trust!!! JUST KIDDING!!! ;)

[dbfletcher]

Did you check the condition and existance of the o-ring o the brass roller?? If it is always on the x... it has to be related to the brass roller.

Doug Fletcher

[Armybrat]

yep, I checked the brass roller - it seems to be fine, no chips, moves smoothly, sensor detects it when you push on it slightly or roll it forward/backward and I moistened the o-ring slightly - no tears, clean... that's right, right?

[Armybrat]

Well, I'm going to head to bed - probably won't sleep with ptns of cw dancing in my head...
I'll pick it up tomorrow afternoon - which by the way is groundhogs day... Have we done this before???

[rjustice]

Another thought would be the rubber tube that creates the upward spring pressure of the roller. There has been a few people that have had this come out, but found it laying in the bottom of the machines. Replaced it, and everything is great...

Hope this helps,

Ron

[c6craig]

Are you only having this problem on this one project? Are you able to carve a different project with no issues (missing segments, gaps in carve, lines in carve, etc)?

Craig

[AskBud]

OK,
You have checked the belt, and by now looked to be sure that the support is under the Brass Roller.

Humor me,
It carved well for me, using a wider board.

Let's begin by making sure the outer support rollers are not too high or too low, but I really do not think this is an issue.

Get a 3/4" board (not oak or cherry, just plain old pine or plywood) wider than your design. Mine was about 6.5" ply 24" long.
Do not change your Design, but Reload your card and select "Ignore" when you get the warning.
Center on board and let's see what happens.
If it drills properly we may presume that, maybe, the actual board must be wider than the design.
If it has the same problem, I would suspect that the Truck may be loose allowing it to tip forward and back. Your pic appears to have problems down the length, not across the board. I'll bet that the board is not moving back & forth as it drills any line of holes! This may indicate a loose truck, or the Flex cable touching the edge of the cover slot from time to time (could be a loose screw on the Top-Hat as well).

Let's see what this test accomplishes.
AskBud

[Jeff_Birt]

The clicking you hear when cranking down is the clutch slipping so cranking by number of clicks is not really doing anything for you. You need to actually measure the head pressure with a bathroom scale in the machine. You might also want to first confirm that the machine is level front (keypad side) to rear and that your sliding guide plate is not causing the wood to bind. Another thought is that the outfeed rollers are not level properly causing a bump when the wood hits them.

[twiceretired]

Armybrat, you really need a bathroom scale, head pressure is real important. I found a cheap mechanical one at WalMart for under $10.00. The mechanical scale works better than the newer electronic scales. Good luck, a load of useful information from the other members, as usual they rise to the occasion.

[AskBud]

I've watched this project from start to finish and it does an entire row of holes from top to bottom. The board does not movewhile this row of holes is drilled.

I do not think head pressure has anything to do with the problem. As I said earlier, I think the problem may be with the truck tilting forward & back for some reason.

Let's see what his next test shows!
AskBud

[Digitalwoodshop]

Did you put 4 strips of masking tape under the board to give the sand paper belts something to dig into... That hardwood is smooth and the board is slippping...

I had board slipping with some hard oak.. The tape ended the problem...

AL

[mister_zed]

I've had the same problem. The truck on the Y axis was loose, not by much - but enough so I could not get the holes in line and the holes I got were NOT round, they were oval, as if it was two halfs of an oval, a bit diplaced from each other. The holes were just plain ugly.

The carved surfaces were "smudged" as if the bit was sometimes carving a bit deeper.

I felt that the truck was a bit loose. When I was facing the QC then it was a bit loose on the right hand upper bearing. I did some reading, in particular the document http://carvewright.com/images/service/Service_instructions/CarveWright_service_replace_y-truck.pdf

I believe your truck might be loose. If you've got my problem - then the remedy is below.

I did the points 3, 4, 5 of this document, but I realized later that they were unnecessary. No disassembly at all is required to tighten the truck on Y-axis, at least not my problem.

What you could try: in the above document, go to the part called "Reassembling the Y-truck", then look at the point "4. Tighten the adjustable roller bearings". Carefully study fig 16 and 17 on the page below. Read then point "5. Preload the bearings against the vertical rails" very carefully and pay attention to figure 19.

When you are done reading, take the PH2 screwdriver and insert with your left hand as in fig 19 and then take the 12mm (it's roughly 1/2") wrench and feel with your index finger where the hex stud is and then basically follow the instructions of point 5. Be careful not to exercise excess force!

It made my day.

/Z

[CarverJerry]

mister zed, is there an area on here that has the entire manual like the one in the posting below for the Y truck?

[mister_zed]

Hi, Jerry!

My only source of that kind of manuals is http://carvewright.com/cms/customer_service

You can access it from carvewright.com, the Support -> Service Documentation path. Otherwise I know of no other sources of those docs.

/Z

[CarverJerry]

Thanks got it book marked now at least, just hope I don't have to use it.

[dcalvin4]

Another thought would be the rubber tube that creates the upward spring pressure of the roller. There has been a few people that have had this come out, but found it laying in the bottom of the machines. Replaced it, and everything is great...

Hope this helps,

Ron

Ron could you explain or take a photo of where the rubber tube is installed as I had trouble with my board not centering and I recalibrated an didnt fix problem then remembered finding the tube at the bottom of the machine and it was recommended that i replace the tube but couldnt figure just exactly the rubber goes even after looking at the parts catalog , Knowing this i plan on my carving being 1/4 off in about a foot.I have read this whole artical and understand all the excelant answers and always put the info to good use..
denny
i like the rock

[AskBud]

Ron could you explain or take a photo of where the rubber tube is installed as I had trouble with my board not centering and I recalibrated an didnt fix problem then remembered finding the tube at the bottom of the machine and it was recommended that i replace the tube but couldnt figure just exactly the rubber goes even after looking at the parts catalog , Knowing this i plan on my carving being 1/4 off in about a foot.I have read this whole artical and understand all the excelant answers and always put the info to good use..
denny
i like the rock
It is part # 99 (Board Tracking Encoder Damper) on page 6. It seats right under the Brass roller assembly. There is a screw head that the hole fits over/around. The "Damper is between the screw head and the Brass Roller assembly.
AskBud

[CarverJerry]

:confused:Hey Bud, on the brass roller is the rubber O-ring. What is the purpose of this?

[AskBud]

:confused:Hey Bud, on the brass roller is the rubber O-ring. What is the purpose of this?

The O-ring is to assist/supplement the Brass roller as the project rolls along.
The "Damper", is to assure the Brass roller has a firmer upward contact.
AskBud (my reasoning)

[rjustice]

dcalvin4,
Hi, Im glad you are liking the Rock Chuck. As far as the damper (rubber tube)... I agree with Bud. It looks like it is Item #99. I tried to find a way to take a picture of it for you, but it will require taking it apart to see it. Perhaps someone (hey AL)... has some taken some pictures while they had it apart.

It looks like you can take the "squaring plate strongback" Item #107 off and you will be able to see it. You can see the breakdown on page 6 of the parts list manual here (http://carvewright.com/images/service/Maintenence/CW_parts_list_manual.pdf)

Hope this helps...

Ron

[Digitalwoodshop]

I have never taken pictures of the brass roller rubber tube. That could be it too.

Still looking for an answer if he used masking tape on the bottom of the board to give the sand paper something to bite into.... 4 strips...

Looks like the machine is working fine, it is just the board slipping, especially if since it is just drilling, the sawdust is building up on the top of the board causing a speed bump.

AL

[c6craig]

I have never taken pictures of the brass roller rubber tube. That could be it too.

Still looking for an answer if he used masking tape on the bottom of the board to give the sand paper something to bite into.... 4 strips...

Looks like the machine is working fine, it is just the board slipping, especially if since it is just drilling, the sawdust is building up on the top of the board causing a speed bump.

AL

AL,

If you look to the very beginning of the thread that was the first thing I told him to try, since I have had that problem, especially with cherry. He then replies back and said he tried it and it didnt work.

I only use one strip of masking tape, so I didn't tell him to try the 4....maybe he will have better luck if he tries that.

Thanks,
Craig

[Armybrat]

Hey everyone! I wasn't able to do anything yesterday, but I'm back today and ready to try all the new advise. I'll keep you updated as I go.

BTW Al, I taped the whole board, the results are on Post #19.

[Digitalwoodshop]

This is a "Head Scratcher....."....

I wonder if there is any chance you are missing 1 tooth out of the X gear....?

How about a rolled up belt.... Thought of a new way to tell if the belt is rolled under.... Measure the width of both belts....

AL

[Armybrat]

This is a "Head Scratcher....."....

I wonder if there is any chance you are missing 1 tooth out of the X gear....?

How about a rolled up belt.... Thought of a new way to tell if the belt is rolled under.... Measure the width of both belts....

AL

Just to clarify - which belt are you talking about? Someone mentioned this earlier... I'm trying to read thru and catch up - lots of advise!!!

[dbfletcher]

This is a "Head Scratcher....."....

I wonder if there is any chance you are missing 1 tooth out of the X gear....?

How about a rolled up belt.... Thought of a new way to tell if the belt is rolled under.... Measure the width of both belts....

AL

Didnt someone (AL maybe) run the attached project on their machine? I thoguht they had said all the holes where drilled in succsession along the y access so the x wasnt moving between holes. I thought that was why they were saying it had to be a loose truck or something along thoses lines. I'll go back and re-read this thread.. but I could have sworn thats was I read a bit ago.

I wonder if it is possible for the OP to post a small video clip on youtube when it is running on thier machine. Perhaps that would shed some more light on it.

edit: It was post #28 of this thread I was referring to. Bud's post.


Doug Fletcher

[lovejoys]

I just go done doing some boards and yes had the same thing
if you are doing it on hard wood try a jig to hold the board
I used pine with tape on the bottom clean the roller with a tooth brush every time

the roller rocks back and fourth and it losses it place
it will also not do it in the same place every time so you will think it is in the software no it is the roller

you can try the adjusting the thing for the roller tracker little dial on the side next to the roller it did help a little for me

where in MN are you

[dbfletcher]

Just to clarify - which belt are you talking about? Someone mentioned this earlier... I'm trying to read thru and catch up - lots of advise!!!

He is referring to the sandpaper traction belts. When they roll it can be nearly impossible to tell just by looking at them. I think measuring the width would be your best indication.

Hope that helps,

Doug Fletcher

[lovejoys]

Also I have seen when you drill the holes on the same side as the brass tracking roller it will vibrate the tracking roller if the board is too lose and or under just 1 roller at the start of the board

this is just what I have seen over the last few weeks

[dbfletcher]

Also I have seen when you drill the holes on the same side as the roller it will vibrate the roller if it too lose under 1 roller at the start of the board

this is just what I have seen over the last few weeks

Can you rephrase/restate that? I cant really figure out what you are trying to say???

Doug Fletcher

[Armybrat]

I just go done doing some boards and yes had the same thing
if you are doing it on hard wood try a jig to hold the board
I used pine with tape on the bottom clean the roller with a tooth brush every time

the roller rocks back and fourth and it losses it place
it will also not do it in the same place every time so you will think it is in the software no it is the roller

you can try the adjusting the thing for the roller tracker little dial on the side next to the roller it did help a little for me

where in MN are you

I'm in St. Charles, MN.
Re-loaded the card, cleaned the brass roller with a brass brush. I just tried using 6.5" cedar (taped), centered on board, didn't stay under rollers - no luck. It seems to be better though. I just noticed that the sand paper belts are already moving after only a few carves. Is that a clue?

[lovejoys]

try making a jig with 4.5" on each end this will help hold the board under both rollers

I am in Grand Meadow

[Armybrat]

The project is under the rollers at all times - 17" in designer and used a 24.5" board, centered.
Could you send a pic in regards to...

"you can try the adjusting the thing for the roller tracker little dial on the side next to the roller it did help a little for me"

Not sure where you're talking about.

[dbfletcher]

The project is under the rollers at all times - 17" in designer and used a 24.5" board, centered.
Could you send a pic in regards to...

"you can try the adjusting the thing for the roller tracker little dial on the side next to the roller it did help a little for me"

Not sure where you're talking about.

It sounds like he is talking about the squaring plate, but I would not mess around with that unless you know or can show that it is out of square from the factory. My understanding is they do a pretty good job of making sure that is square at LHR.

I know this isnt the correct document, but I havent found another that explains the squaring adjustment as clear. http://www.carvewright.com/images/service/Manuals/CO2_dragster_manual.pdf perhaps someone else has a better guide to use.

Doug Fletcher

[lovejoys]

look on the Sq plate you will see a little dial with white lines around it this is for the brass tracking roller it will make it harder for the little brass roller to turn

my camra is go with my wife but if you look you will see it inside on the key board side of the plate inside of the machine

[AskBud]

I think we need to re-think this problem.

For those of us/you who have downloaded and cut this project, I think we see that an entire row of holes are drilled before the board moves.

To me, this would indicate a loose truck assembly.
However, if Army really sees the belts move while the row is being drilled it could indicate some electronic glitch.

I'm betting on a loose truck!
AskBud

[lovejoys]

the truck will almost have to be falling off to make the holes that far out on wack
the sand paper belt move after it drills 2-3 holes
it will jerk and then it will jerk back and drill the hole

yes the sand paper belt moves

[mister_zed]

Bud, if the hole is larger than the cutting bit, then of course the belts will enough to make the cutting bit draw a circle.

I'd rather bet on a loose truck, as you do...

Army, have you checked the truck? If you grab the bit chuck and wiggle, is it really tight in all directions?

[PCW]

This is a "Head Scratcher....."....

I wonder if there is any chance you are missing 1 tooth out of the X gear....?

How about a rolled up belt.... Thought of a new way to tell if the belt is rolled under.... Measure the width of both belts....

AL

I would check the X gears like Al said. They are located behind the cover on the side opposite the keyboard. You will also have to remove a black plastic cover to inspect the gears. Look on both sides of the gears to make sure the inner gear isn't damaged as well.

One gear is removed showing the output shaft on the X motor in the picture below.

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo54/pcwholesale/CarveWright%20Machine%20Photos/DSC_0463.jpg

Here is a picture of a trashed enter center brass gear.
http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo54/pcwholesale/CarveWright%20Machine%20Photos/CW5.jpg

[Armybrat]

Ok, I have made a few more adjustments...
1) Tightened screws - the sq plate was actually a little bit loose!
2) Turned the roller adjustment screw 2 lines CCW.
3) Cleaned all the teeth on the gears
4) Took a video and put on youtube - search for "armybratforever"
The jerking begins at about 25 seconds into the video - look very close!
It is actually looking a lot better than it was... not sure which one is fixing it.

Lovejoys - do you make cribbage boards?

[lovejoys]

Yes I do made about 50 this last month

I know what you are talking about

you can send me a private message we can talk on the phone

[lovejoys]

I went out today and ran this again but I changed pattern not to use the drill function this fixed all of the hole problems but it takes 3 time longer

it just works better I think Bud was right it may be in the software something to do with the drill function

[dbfletcher]

I went out today and ran this again but I changed pattern not to use the drill function this fixed all of the hole problems but it takes 3 time longer

it just works better I think Bud was right it may be in the software something to do with the drill function

Which post did bud say it was software related?? I just re-read them and must be missing it. I havnt done the cribbage board... but Ihave made other items with rows of drilled holes and didnt run in to a problem (yet.. knock on wood).

I thought we were still all mostly feeling it was a mechanical issue.

Doug Fletcher

[AskBud]

I noticed a pause/hesitation from time to time as my test drilled the holes.
AskBud
http://forum.carvewright.com/showpost.php?p=120050&postcount=16

[dbfletcher]

I noticed a pause/hesitation from time to time as my test drilled the holes.
AskBud
http://forum.carvewright.com/showpost.php?p=120050&postcount=16

But it still drilled them straight didnt it? Or have I lost my bearings with regards to this thread?

Doug Fletcher

[AskBud]

But it still drilled them straight didnt it? Or have I lost my bearings with regards to this thread?

Doug Fletcher

Yes, My test was perfect. Nothing wrong with the original MPC.

They are running some more tests, one of which is to remove some of the head pressure. They're also getting the rubber belts which will entail adjusting lots of things that may have been out of kilter.
AskBud

[lovejoys]

I did it on 2 machines and both had the same problem with the drill function

it is not in the tracking as I thought at first.

Please can some others try this today and see what we get

[Eagle Hollow]

Lovejoy,

Maybe try running this pattern to see if it works. Search "cribbage board" and look for post on 01/08/2008.

[AskBud]

Lovejoy,

Maybe try running this pattern to see if it works.

http://forum.carvewright.com/images/attach/mpc.gif

Jerry,
Your attachment is not the proper one.
AskBud

[Eagle Hollow]

Jerry,
Your attachment is not the proper one.
AskBud

I'll bet you have a video to show me how to post this. I edited the previous post.

Thanks for the heads up.

[lovejoys]

Search "cribbage board"

well I went and had a look and it is not the first time this has come up I see about 10 or so post about the drill button not working hole are off

so I am back to thinking software maybe it in the copy and paste not sure

but it is a problem if you want to make cribbage boards