Alternatives to CC and CW?

[jww922]

I'm new to the forum and the cc and cw machines. I've been wondering whether there are alternatives to these machines?

Thanks!
John

[DocWheeler]

John,

Anything from mallet and chisel to a 5-axis or more machine. There are some three-axis machines that you assemble yourself and at least one in about the price range (the shark). Many differences and you need to be aware that they each use different software than the CW (and in most cases, from each other).

Most others limit the project size in the X direction, however, some of the others may be bigger in the Y and Z directions than the CW.

They are not easily compared. The Shark can be seen at Rockler I think, quite a different machine (and not as fun in my opinion). Since the CW is cheaper and has more retailers, there are probably more of them sold each year (could be wrong here) and there are a greater number of negative posts.

Perhaps since there is more assembly on the Shark, the user is more familiar with it from the beginning?

I would imagine that I would personally be able to create more things with the CW than I would with a Shark. The next step up would be a Shop Saber (Bot?) I think. You need to create the code to do things with those machines - no Drag and Drop in their software.

[AskBud]

I'm new to the forum and the cc and cw machines. I've been wondering whether there are alternatives to these machines?

Thanks!
John
There seems to be no alternative to the CW/CC unless you want to spend several times the money. However, I feel that Sear's has the best overall deal if you get the 5 year warranty (All repairs seem to be at no cost, just a long wait time of about 3 weeks).
AskBud

[Digitalwoodshop]

John,

Welcome to the Forum. I did a quick check of your 13 posts to see your interest. Lots of Referb questions.

As for the CW, I would honestly recommend you get a new machine for your first machine to learn it and get all the Hand Holding you will need from LHR and the Forum. Getting a Referb after you have learned the machine and what is normal is a less stressful event.

This is a CW forum and only a few like IKE have ventured into a bigger CNC. People that have or have used a bigger CNC laugh at us.... That's OK with ME as the CW meets my needs nicely. I now have 4.....

I use it to make money... And since I am a Business I deduct the operating expenses and depreciate the machines. I also pay 30% tax.

I had wanted to get a Shop Bot until the fateful day I saw this on the Discovery Channel and was HOOKED.

It is like the difference between a Homeowner Sewing Machine and a Industrial Sewing Machine.... Plastic Gears.... Metal GEARS.... They both sew.... Depends on what you task it with....

If you have not already, join Sawmill Creek and look over the CNC forum. From that you can bounce to the other big players like Shop Bot who have a GREAT Forum... I sniffed around the Shop Bot Forum for about a year picking up tips before getting my CW. I learned so much.

Possibly someday I will get a Shop Bot.... But at the rate my Fire Department Side of the Business is picking up I may not have time to play with a bigger machine. I turned down 2 bigger sign jobs this week as I have 500 Fire Tags to make.

I am going to my first of 4 Craft Shows for the Season and I have less stuff then ever.... My heart just is not into it... I am focusing on what makes money.

I saw your posts about buying Wood, Converting Embroidery Art, and Wood Turnng.... So you have a variety of interest and the CW may just fit into the plan in your shop.

One of Dozen other Consumer CNC's might better fit your need. I saw many Shop Bots sold after the user decided to upgrade to a bigger, faster, quieter, and one with better stepper motors. So watch the Forum and even post your interest in a used Shop Bot and you might get one that meets your needs.
I almost say you need to write a business plan on what you plan to do with your CNC and that will tell you the smallest machine that will meet your needs.

With the CW will need lots of hands on and like me if you depend on it to get projects out the door to get paid then you need 2 machines.

Good Luck with your Decision.

AL

[PCW]

I will add to this a little.

I have a regular CNC as well as a Carvewright and I use both regularly. If you are looking at a CNC that runs g-code price the CAD/CAM software and be prepared for a long learning process.:D

[Smoken D]

The Magazine "Woodworker's Journal" in the August 2009 did an article called, CNC Routers: Ready for Your Home Shop?" Afraid Bill Hylton, the writer, gave the Shark hands down compaired to the CW. Kevin Corcoran from LHR wrote a response letter but Bill stuck to his guns and said the Shark was better after using both machines in his shop for his own projects.:(

[Jeff_Birt]

The 'all plastic' Shark??

[seabass]

SO what!

Some of the best tools in the world as well as some of the most advanced technology in the world is made with plastic!

It is one thing saying why you like the CW, but saying the Shark is all plastic doesn't fly as a neg. This is not the plastic of the 50's.

My Festools, especially the sanders, are head and shoulders above the rest, and a lot of plastic!

I like my CC, but come on the Shark is a better machine, plastic or not. Just the ability to use Vcarve and other software that is not proprietary and use it well puts it ahead in my book..

It doesn't mean I don't like my CC!

As far as the OC's original question I highly recommend a CC refurb! Do not pay more than 999.00 though.

[Jeff_Birt]

Plastic works great as a cover material or as a case for small things that can stand a bit of chang in size as the plastic heats and cools. Plastic for a machine tool frame is just crazy. As the machine heats and cools the frame will always be twisting (ever so slightly), and as the machine ages and the plastic continues to cold flow (some plastics are worse than others) it will start to crack around every hole drilled through it.

[bjbethke]

Plastic works great as a cover material or as a case for small things that can stand a bit of chang in size as the plastic heats and cools. Plastic for a machine tool frame is just crazy. As the machine heats and cools the frame will always be twisting (ever so slightly), and as the machine ages and the plastic continues to cold flow (some plastics are worse than others) it will start to crack around every hole drilled through it.
I agree with you - plastic will not hold up, not even in the CarveWright unit.

[jab73180]

just remembewhat AL said too. the most important parts of this machine are plastic, the gears. good or bad i dunno, ask AL i think he has replaced his a few times.

[Wilbur]

Plastic has come a long way and there are plastic that will take a lot of heat so As for me I think if the right plastic is used there should not be a problem with temp as for as the CW or CC goes.

I was in the candle making busness for 14 yr and have seen candles start to be used in plastic containers in the last 7 yr.

Just what I think. but I could be wrong. I would need to see though.

Wilbur

[Jeff_Birt]

It has nothing to do with how high a temperature a plastic can stand. As plastic heats it E-X-P-A-N-D-S. For smaller items the amount of expansion is not usually of consequence. Plastic gears typically have a filler material which makes them strong and they are not run at a temp that would ever cause a problem.

As a structural material for larger pieces plastic is not so great. As it heats and expands the frame will have to twist to keep from breaking. From what I have seen of the CW when I have had mine apart is that the major parts are metal and the plastic parts are designed to accommodate and slight change in size when heating.

The Shark is a simple CNC router design with all the major frame pieces cut out of plastic.

[SteveEJ]

I agree with you - plastic will not hold up, not even in the CarveWright unit.

Woops! :rolleyes:

That's not all that is plastic..

[Ike]

I will add to this a little.

I have a regular CNC as well as a Carvewright and I use both regularly. If you are looking at a CNC that runs g-code price the CAD/CAM software and be prepared for a long learning process.:D

I too have another CNC a K2 CNC that is not all plastic! I have owned it for almost 2 years and never used it yet! I haven't taken the time to learn the V Carve Pro. I also owned a Shopbot and went to their Jamboree and all the time they were showing how to use the software for the SB I was making the same thing with the CW designer!

I have heard a rumor that LHR is working with SB to make the designer compatible with SB or any CNC that uses G- code. That would be great! I might even try my never used getting old K2!

Ike

[Fletcher]

I have been designing in 3d, programming, and running industrial cnc machines for almost 20 years now and I can tell you honestly that the CW offers ease-of-use that no industrial level machine offers without spending big $$$. I have had a small home cnc in the past but you had to learn CAD, then learn CAM, then learn how to set up the machine, pick up tool heights, pick up your part so that you could define your zero point, etc, etc, etc.....

The CW is ideally suited for the home woodworker/user - you don't need to go to college to use it. As far as breakdowns go, ALL equipment fails at some point or another, and the guys who fix the industrial machines charge $90/hour. The fact that LHR offers this forum is a blessing in itself because the amount of knowledge on here is incredible - especially if you listen to guys like Al.

As far as plastic parts go - take a look under the hood of your car sometime and tell me that plastic isn't a suitable material for many things. I do agree with Jeff about a plastic frame twisting though, but I would be more worried about cutting pressure twisting the frame than heat. That's why the large industrial cnc machines for steel have great big cast iron bases and frames, so they don't twist or move when you try to plow a 4" diameter cutter through a block of stainless steel that weighs hundreds of pounds.

Just my two cents on your question...

[gwizpro]

Will the shark do a longer length than 24", is it as easy to use without a long learning curve? If so, I will buy one.......

[cabnet636]

many shark owners soon realize the limitations as well, i have helped a few who have moved onto shopbots buddy and the camaster machines, my advice is get the largest table you can afford, i still use my cc once in a while and have a few plans for some farm signs, i went onto 4x8 and 5x10 machines after my initial cc purchase, as far as table lenght then decide what 90+ % of your work will be and go there first.

jim

[Ike]

Fletcher I agree 100%! That was the point I was conveying I have a commercial CNC and had a big commercial CNC and I am happy with the CW and the ease of the designer that I haven't tried my K2!

Ike

[jww922]

Thanks for all of the very insightful answers to a broad question.

You all have given me many points to ponder and I do appreciate LHR creating a forum which is very helpful and I didn't want to step on their toes BUT I want to make an informed decision and like to know my options.

I have already learned a huge amount about CC/CW's and cnc's. There is a wealth of information here in print but apparently an infinite amount from people who actually use them and are good enough to share their knowledge.

I'm looking forward to joining the owners ranks soon.

John

[Digitalwoodshop]

To chime in on the Gears.... Well I generalize the gears as plastic but I bet they are Nylon. I believe the X Gear Box is designed to have a weak link in the event of a jam and the motor current does not give you a x Overload or if it does and you hit enter and ignore it....

Better a $5.00 gear rather than the more expensive Motor or a driver transistor in the computer with a $300.00 price tag.

I made mention about plastic gears in a Sewing Machine and Metal Gears in a Industrial. It's all about design and expected use. You would not use the home machine on heavy canvas.

We use our plastic gear machine within the design limitations and everything works well... Try to do something outside the limitation like cutting Plexiglas that melts to the bit. Plexi comes in 2 flavors.... Cast is more expensive and cuts well... Extruded is Squeezed flat and melts and sticks to the bits and jam up the machine.

And to end... I have years in as a Navy Analog Fire Control Computer Tech. And every gear in that 1970's Computer and there were many of them were metal... Metal to Metal Gears wear and you get SLOP in the gearing..... Plastic gears wear VERY WELL.... I bet that same Analog Computer if built today using Plastic or Nylon Gears, I bet it would WORK BETTER.

So it is not about plastic or metal it's about design specifications.

As for the Wood Working Magazine Review, I believe they write with a slight bias... There job is to SELL more Magazines.. Shop Bot and the Concept of a table version of a CNC like the Shark is accepted like "The Earth is FLAT"..... Everyone is a position to have a opinion and is being paid to Appeal to the MASSES and could have a pre conceived opinion. Everything from seeing a Shop Bot style being used years ago...

The Concept of the CW in a table top just might turn off the guy writing the review and unfairly taint his opinin....

Only a TRUE USER could truly appreciate the CW.

AL

[Digitalwoodshop]

Thanks for all of the very insightful answers to a broad question.

You all have given me many points to ponder and I do appreciate LHR creating a forum which is very helpful and I didn't want to step on their toes BUT I want to make an informed decision and like to know my options.

I have already learned a huge amount about CC/CW's and cnc's. There is a wealth of information here in print but apparently an infinite amount from people who actually use them and are good enough to share their knowledge.

I'm looking forward to joining the owners ranks soon.

John


Hey... Get one and try it for a while... Don't like it sell it... It looses some value but worth the try....

AL

[lawrence]

Just to chime in my .02 as well.... I recently did a comparason shop and looked into the shark, homebuilt, ebay-sold, shopbot, and carvewright....

The only thing within a grand (including the shark) is the homebuilt/e-bay cncs, which are very limited in both support and size.... in many cases VERY VERY limited

The shopbot has its plusses, but the ease, popularity, and support for the carvewright is (sofar) greater...

The shopbot looks awesome, but out of my price range....

I read the article closely (and the rebuttal) and did not find either in any way offensive... the article seemed fair (with the exception of the limit for only 1 inch for z axis which was incorrect) What the author said was that his likely use for a CNC machine was furniture part making and that in his case the shark was a better machine for his use... I can't argue with this logic-- for parts manufacture there really is not any comparason to the CW and an industrial CNC machine...of which the shark is a miniture version of.... for furniture parts I can see making ONE with my CW and using it as a pattern for bandsaw/router use but I would never fathom using my CW to actually machine multiple parts in most cases... and I don't honestly think anyone else here would either... and that ISN"T a slam on the CW, just an honest statement.

This being said, the software for the Carvewright can't be beat for usability out of the box for the average layman... designer/pattern editor ROCKS

I really do enjoy my carvewright
Lawrence

[seabass]

My buddies "plastic" Shark has never broken down.

How anyone here can say the plastic will not last is laughable. We all know and have experienced the CW's breaking down LONG before any plastic components of the Shark ever will!

Companies love to get die hards that just will not truly admit the negs. Festool forums are the same way.

Look past your addiction to these machines and you will have to admit they break down way to much and are not durable at all. A plastic machine that does not break down for 3-5 years is surely better than one with no plastic that continual breaks down and needs continual heavy maintenance.

I like my CW but get real, their are problems, big problems and they need to come out with a new unit. Heck, they know every problem and only need go through the list to get them fixed and then release a new machine. Maybe at that point when the machine is more reliable you can start saying the plastic in the Shark is a neg, as it stands now it is not. Not verse a CW anyway.

Denying the faults of the CW machine is really not doing anything constructive and knocking a better machine and saying its not better than the CW only makes the people like me that like the CW look like fools. I like my CW but it is not better than a shark.

Features has nothing to do with it. Working without breaking down does. SO many people have been driven away from the CW and this forum becasue of the few that insist the machine is the greatest thing since sliced bread and are not totally honest with themselves about the reliability issues, which is the most important thing at this point. Not whether it is metal or plastic or what software is better. Many leave the forum in disbelief that we are not workers for CW because things get washed over here. This machine is still not reliable enough to compare it to any other machine, not in my book. I love my CW, but I am realistic and understand its strengths and weaknesses and I am a TRUE user.. This is why I always say get a refurb, it just is not worth the 2500.00 with all the bells and whistles, it is worth 1000.00 or 1200.00 though, IMHO. At 1200.00 it very well may be better value than the Shark, I maintain at the full retail it is not. That being said I am going to go do some cool carving on my CW now.

[jab73180]

to be honest, its not the plastic or metal that breaks down on the cw/cc. its the dang sensors and stuff like that. look at the shark, there is no edge sensors, or board tracking sensors, or any sensors like that. there isnt a flex shaft either and if you put the right motor in it, you can change the speeds for different wood, something we have been asking for on the cc/cw. but there are bad parts to it, like the size of the table, i bet sign people cant make 4X8 signs with ease on the shark. the software isnt easy to use (from what i hear). there are pluses and negatives for everything. The cc/cw seems to have bugs when you take it out of the box, but once you get the few bugs worked out, it works great. I have had these last 4 days off and have been carving up a storm. Thank you carvewright for making this machine so the average joe can use it and enjoy it!!!!

[liquidguitars]

Denying the faults of the CW machine is really not doing anything constructive and knocking a better machine and saying its not better than the CW only makes the people like me that like the CW look like fools. I like my CW but it is not better than a shark.

When i see something like this made on the shark I will take a bite.. :mrgreen:

http://liquidguitars.com/assets/images/ElectricViolinBlueIIR003.jpg

http://liquidguitars.com/assets/images/ElectricViolinBlueIIR001.jpg


warning plug ahead.. It's Xmas time why not pick up a electric violin or two in "avatar blue".


Since i don't i will keep with the CW until Designer software gets so user friendly due to complaining that i no longer can run it.


Regarding the hardware my two CW has been running like a pro no issues that cleaning will not address now that i own a Rock.

[mtylerfl]

LG,

Man, oh man, I love those violins! Why didn't my parents 'force' me to take lessons on the violin instead of piano?

I would have bought one or two already (blue and wood finishes), if I could play them!

[want2b]

My buddies "plastic" Shark has never broken down.

How anyone here can say the plastic will not last is laughable. We all know and have experienced the CW's breaking down LONG before any plastic components of the Shark ever will!

Companies love to get die hards that just will not truly admit the negs. Festool forums are the same way.

Look past your addiction to these machines and you will have to admit they break down way to much and are not durable at all. A plastic machine that does not break down for 3-5 years is surely better than one with no plastic that continual breaks down and needs continual heavy maintenance.

I like my CW but get real, their are problems, big problems and they need to come out with a new unit. Heck, they know every problem and only need go through the list to get them fixed and then release a new machine. Maybe at that point when the machine is more reliable you can start saying the plastic in the Shark is a neg, as it stands now it is not. Not verse a CW anyway.

Denying the faults of the CW machine is really not doing anything constructive and knocking a better machine and saying its not better than the CW only makes the people like me that like the CW look like fools. I like my CW but it is not better than a shark.

Features has nothing to do with it. Working without breaking down does. SO many people have been driven away from the CW and this forum becasue of the few that insist the machine is the greatest thing since sliced bread and are not totally honest with themselves about the reliability issues, which is the most important thing at this point. Not whether it is metal or plastic or what software is better. Many leave the forum in disbelief that we are not workers for CW because things get washed over here. This machine is still not reliable enough to compare it to any other machine, not in my book. I love my CW, but I am realistic and understand its strengths and weaknesses and I am a TRUE user.. This is why I always say get a refurb, it just is not worth the 2500.00 with all the bells and whistles, it is worth 1000.00 or 1200.00 though, IMHO. At 1200.00 it very well may be better value than the Shark, I maintain at the full retail it is not. That being said I am going to go do some cool carving on my CW now.

Am assuming you will be puchasing a Shark very soon.

Rick H

[Ike]

My buddies "plastic" Shark has never broken down.

How anyone here can say the plastic will not last is laughable. We all know and have experienced the CW's breaking down LONG before any plastic components of the Shark ever will!

Companies love to get die hards that just will not truly admit the negs. Festool forums are the same way.

Look past your addiction to these machines and you will have to admit they break down way to much and are not durable at all. A plastic machine that does not break down for 3-5 years is surely better than one with no plastic that continual breaks down and needs continual heavy maintenance.

I like my CW but get real, their are problems, big problems and they need to come out with a new unit. Heck, they know every problem and only need go through the list to get them fixed and then release a new machine. Maybe at that point when the machine is more reliable you can start saying the plastic in the Shark is a neg, as it stands now it is not. Not verse a CW anyway.

Denying the faults of the CW machine is really not doing anything constructive and knocking a better machine and saying its not better than the CW only makes the people like me that like the CW look like fools. I like my CW but it is not better than a shark.

Features has nothing to do with it. Working without breaking down does. SO many people have been driven away from the CW and this forum becasue of the few that insist the machine is the greatest thing since sliced bread and are not totally honest with themselves about the reliability issues, which is the most important thing at this point. Not whether it is metal or plastic or what software is better. Many leave the forum in disbelief that we are not workers for CW because things get washed over here. This machine is still not reliable enough to compare it to any other machine, not in my book. I love my CW, but I am realistic and understand its strengths and weaknesses and I am a TRUE user.. This is why I always say get a refurb, it just is not worth the 2500.00 with all the bells and whistles, it is worth 1000.00 or 1200.00 though, IMHO. At 1200.00 it very well may be better value than the Shark, I maintain at the full retail it is not. That being said I am going to go do some cool carving on my CW now.

I agree with seabass on the strength of the "Shark" this isn't plastic squirt guns are made out of! I am guessing here but looks like a high strength polyurethane type plastic? I may have the wording incorrect? As forth to heat, lol the shop would have to be on fire for it to warp bad enough to damage it. Matter of fact the same amount of heat to ruin the CW/CC!

My K2 is made air craft aluminum and very strong. To compare the CW/CC to a Shark or a K2 CNC is comparing apples to apples.... like a Fuji apple to a Red Delicious to a Granny Smith all 3 are apples and all 3 can make a pie!,

So to say one is better then the other is not fair! Myself I like Fuji apples for pies the best, but I have been known to use Granny Smith too! So does that mean Red Delicious are good for pies? Nope just a different pie!

CW/CC have came a long way from the beginning and have only improved. With the other CNC the software is most difficult part and the machine easiest to learn and the CW/CC the machine is the most difficult to learn and the software easy!


Makers like "Shark, K2 and other CNC makers have been in business for several years and went through the growing process. This is CW/CC time and I have seen their growth quickly!

So what is compatible to the CW/CC another CW/CC!! Both the CW/CC and Shark are the same in one way and different in others! What is better they all are, if you are happy with it and it serves you well then whatever it is....it is the best!


Ike

[drwatkins]

It has nothing to do with how high a temperature a plastic can stand. As plastic heats it E-X-P-A-N-D-S. For smaller items the amount of expansion is not usually of consequence. Plastic gears typically have a filler material which makes them strong and they are not run at a temp that would ever cause a problem.

As a structural material for larger pieces plastic is not so great. As it heats and expands the frame will have to twist to keep from breaking. From what I have seen of the CW when I have had mine apart is that the major parts are metal and the plastic parts are designed to accommodate and slight change in size when heating.

The Shark is a simple CNC router design with all the major frame pieces cut out of plastic.

Sorry jeff, you can't use the plastic argument you stated above since they stopped using bakelight in the early sixties. In any normal ambient temperature ranges (-15 to 110 degrees F), modern plastics are going to deflect less than metal. Just listen to the metal roof on your barn as the sun comes up. Now if you approach critical tempuratures in plastics then the deflection can be huge as well as it is in metal when critical temps are reached. the only difference being the temp range where this occures. in industrial plastics this will be 400 to 600 degress F. Mic and meter your "Y" rails on the CW then heat them to 600 degrees. OOPs, won't be carving with them anymore. Tupperware melts at 280 F but will bulge and twist at 140f. The carvewright cover door has a little more carbon and can handle a bit higher but still not a very good grade of plastic and the housing is oh so brittle. I do not have a shop bot or K2 or shark. I only have my CC and I love the work the machine can produce but the reliability is of huge concern to me and I am shopping for another machine. I just don't see the CC/CW ever fulfilling anything more than hobbiest desires due to carve rate and down time. Primarily down time. I may end up with multiple carvewright machines to try to fulfill my desire to make a business out of wood work with carved features just because of prices as I intend to build my shop without a major loan. However, you will not get me to stop pressing for a better machine from LHR. By the way, my compucarve says made in China. Are the carvewrights made in Texas or are they also made in china? That may explain some of the quality problems I have had with my machine.

[Ike]

[B]By the way, my compucarve says made in China. Are the carvewrights made in Texas or are they also made in china? That may explain some of the quality problems I have had with my machine.[/QUOTE]

Dr. Watkins, I had a Dr. in Ione Ca. that is a Dr. Watkins! Anyway they are all made in China and the LHR company is in Texas. That is the nice thing about my K2 it is made in Ca. I am not sure about all the parts! Shopbot is made in the USA except the motor it was made in Japan.

I enjoy my CW and CC also but this week I think I am going to try my K2!

Ike

[Jeff_Birt]

Sorry jeff, you can't use the plastic argument you stated above since they stopped using bakelight in the early sixties. In any normal ambient temperature ranges (-15 to 110 degrees F), modern plastics are going to deflect less than metal.


I don't want to beat this to death, but plastics cover too wide a range making a broad statement about the material properties of all plastics like this impossible. I'm also really not trying to take a dig at a particular product but I woudl like to interject some facts into this discussion.

There are several really great plastics out now which can just about rival aluminum in most respects. Delrin (acetal) is one of them, it is great stuff: easy to machine and tough. The point is not whether or not plastic is better now than it used to be (it is) or that plastic is better or worse than metal in general (that is nonsensical as every material has its use, choosing the proper material for the job is the key.)

From what I could find out about the type of plastic used in this 'other' CNC machines frame it is HDPE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_polyethylene. HDPE is commonly used for things like milk jugs, water pipes, and it is the stuff that is mixed with sawdust to form the composite decking material.

Looking at a simple table of linear thermal expansion: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html, it is very easy to see that HDPE, depending on its exact composition, expands is 2~10x more than aluminum with the same temperature rise. It also gets significantly weaker as it gets warmer. That is why the HDPE/wood composite decking materials are not used as a structural component.

While I think that the choice of HDPE was probably better than MDF, I also realize that many people use MDF to make these simple router table designs and are quite happy with the results. If that works for you and the type of work you need to do I'm happy for you. Choices are good for everyone.

[Eagle Hollow]

While I think that the choice of HDPE was probably better than MDF, I also realize that many people use MDF to make these simple router table designs and are quite happy with the results. If that works for you and the type of work you need to do I'm happy for you. Choices are good for everyone.

Very well said...'nough said.

Thanks Jeff

Jerry

[jww922]

Is this can of worms mine?

[Ike]

Is this can of worms mine?
Nope we are just discussing things! In my opinion still the only thing you can compare a CW/CC is another CW/CC! Because the CW/CC is in a class in it's own!

It does what I want it do and each day I am learning it can do even more!

Ike

[seabass]

Here is another alternative under 2000.00

http://torchmate.com/torchmate2x2cncsystem/torchmate_2x2_cnc_prototyping_sy.html

Here is a sweet bolt together kit(only need a hex wrench) if you want to make your own(takes a 2 hours), WELL under 2000.00(base 1300.00) all said and done"

http://www.finelineautomation.com/store/show/FLA100-00

You can say they are a different animal, but I say yes you can compare them in the sense that they make the same end product for a comparable cost. No or very little plastic.