Carving a radius

[BigShred]

How does one carve a convex radius upon the length of a L28" x W3.75" x 1.5" board?

I am looking to carve a radius for the purpose of a guitar fretboard usually with a width of 1 3/4" and a radius of 9.5". Thanks!

[hogiewan]

You'll need to create a 3D model of the board and import it - either by creating a grayscale heightmap or using the STL Import plugin for Designer.

[BigShred]

You'll need to create a 3D model of the board and import it - either by creating a grayscale heightmap or using the STL Import plugin for Designer.

Yeah, I tried to find a way to get a specifically designated radius carved last night and came up empty handed. I could carve a region and assign a curved surface, but there's no way to adjust the radius of that surface.

Anyone have an idea what the radius of that surface defaults to?

Is there any way to do this aside from dishing out $300 for the STP Import software? I'm already tapped out on the machine, the scanning probe and the full bit set :/

Thanks.

[AskBud]

There are three things that determine the Radii of Carved Areas.
All current "Domes" available are Radii carves.
1) The size of the Carved Area.
2) the Depth of that Carved Area.
3) The Height of that carved Area.
AskBud

[Fletcher]

Try this.... drawn in rhino and imported via the STL converter.

Cheers,
F

[hogiewan]

If you have the probe - scan a board that is already the right radius. You could make a radius the hard way (buy a radiused sanding block) or buy a preradiused fingerboard.

If you are going to get the machine to cut a radiused FB, you may want to go ahead and get the software and learn some 3D modeling to take full advantage.

[PCW]

This can be done in designer as well very easily. On the rear the board in the mpc I did the following.

1.Draw a rectangular to cover the board. drawing/rectangular tool
2.While highlighted select surface. tools/select surface/domes/vertical
3.Change the height by setting 0 to 999. Height/Depth setting shown in picture set at 999

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28860

[BigShred]

This can be done in designer as well very easily. On the rear the board in the mpc I did the following.

1.Draw a rectangular to cover the board. drawing/rectangular tool
2.While highlighted select surface. tools/select surface/domes/vertical
3.Change the height by setting 0 to 999. Height/Depth setting shown in picture set at 999

28859

28860

Thanks! Any idea what radius that is though?

[PCW]

You can play with the height by setting the height from 0 to 999. Hover your mouse over the center line and top or bottom to give you the Z depth that is viewed in the bottom left corner of the screen. Should be able to fine tune it easily.

I exaggerated the radius just for a example.

[pine acres woodshop]

Man, I calculated this awhile ago, Let me see if I can find my information. I made some radius sanding blocks for the fret boards. I made a 7.25, 9.5, 10, 12, and 14" radius. Lets see for a 9.5" radius x 3" wide would be .119", 7.25" radius x 3" would be .157, 10" radius x 3" would be .113, 12" radius x 3" would be .094, and a 14" radius x 3" would be .081. Set your height to 999 and your depth to .119 then invert. I only have the numbers for 3" wide but that is plenty wide for a fret board. Hope this helps you out.

I uploaded my program for the radius blocks if your interested.

[pine acres woodshop]

Here I calculated it for you if you need it 3-3/4" wide. The height would be 999 and the depth would be .187 then invert.

[Fletcher]

The mpc file that I posted earlier is a true 9.5 inch radius over a 3.75 inch width, and 28 inches long. You should be able to pull the pattern you need from that file and add it to yours...

[hogiewan]

Quick reminder - it would probably take longer to carve this with the cw than to sand down the board with a radius block, not to mention the expense the the machine, wear & tear on the machine and bits, and the electricity vs that of a radius block, sandpaper, and whatever you ate to provide your body the calories (even if we all have plenty of those stored to spare).

What's my point? If all you are doing is creating the radius and you are not milling parts that are nearly finished, you are wasting time and money. Now if you were doing a compound radius, it might make sense, but I don't think you can do that in designer.

[ChrisAlb]

Quick reminder - it would probably take longer to carve this with the cw than to sand down the board with a radius block, not to mention the expense the the machine, wear & tear on the machine and bits, and the electricity vs that of a radius block, sandpaper, and whatever you ate to provide your body the calories (even if we all have plenty of those stored to spare).

What's my point? If all you are doing is creating the radius and you are not milling parts that are nearly finished, you are wasting time and money. Now if you were doing a compound radius, it might make sense, but I don't think you can do that in designer.


I don't know too much about shaping fret boards but I'd agree with most this (as far as time and expense). However, I do believe you can create compound radius's with Designer. Grouping and merging different domes is the way. It's hard to get the right angle for the picture to show it well but I've also attached the MPC as a demo. This is a very simple example but with enough experimenting, more complex ones can be done as well. Created in 1.134

I know this isn't directly related to the OP's question but just as an add on...lol

Hope it helps

[pine acres woodshop]

That's pretty fancy Chris, but the compound radius he is referring to is a radius along the same length, in the same direction, where on one end the radius would be, let’s say a 12" radius and on the other end would be a 9.5" radius. If that makes sense.

[ChrisAlb]

That's pretty fancy Chris, but the compound radius he is referring to is a radius along the same length, in the same direction, where on one end the radius would be, let’s say a 12" radius and on the other end would be a 9.5" radius. If that makes sense.


Makes perfect sense Mark. By changing the parameters of each of those regions and stretching them out to the needed length and width, it can be done. As I said, that's a "very simple" example. If I knew the exact design dimensions and radius requirements, I'll bet I could do it...LOL

And how the heck have you been buddy?? Long time sir! http://forum.carvewright.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[pine acres woodshop]

I've been good thanks for asking. How about yourself?

[ChrisAlb]

I've been good thanks for asking. How about yourself?

Still facing some real challenges....still fighting...LOL...http://forum.carvewright.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[pine acres woodshop]

This would kind of be how it would look, it would just blend in better.

[BigShred]

Okay, now let me get to the nitty gritty. The real reason why I'm pursuing this line of inquiry.

I'm trying to design a compound radius fretboard, but not compound from nut to heel, but compound from low E to high E, top to bottom.

Here's an image of what I am trying to achieve:

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/shibli/Zaman%20Radius/?action=view&current=Zaman_Radius.jpg

I want the top to start with a 9.5 straight radius and blend into a 11.5" radius on the higher strings (G, B and E). There's a lot of explanation as to how it is of benefit to a lead player, but I'll spare all those justifications and details.

So far I'm thinking of scanning a 9.5" radius fretboard (Fender Strat) and an 11.5" radius fretboard (PRS Santana) and then cutting each image down the middle then joining them. That's one option, but there's a little problem. I haven't succeeded in building a scanning sled that works with guitar necks :/

So if I can design this without having to scan the necks it'd be a heck of a time saver.

Thanks for all the feedback and fabulous examples. You are all fantastic.

[hogiewan]

sounds backwards - I would think you'd want the flatter radius on the higher strings so that bends don't "fret out" , but there is a nice curve for your hand while playing chords. This is the same idea with the compound radius lengthwise - smaller, rounder radius near the nut where you play chords and the lower strings and flatter as you move toward the bridge where you play the higher strings more often and do bigger bends.

Also - why a 1.5" board? Are you doing a one-piece maple fretboard and neck? Why not make a double-sided carve that also routes the neck shape?

[hogiewan]

Here's a fretboard I am working on. It's got a 7.5" radius at the nut and goes to a 2" radius at the bridge. It's far a special project that's a bit different (and backward from most compound radius guitars).

[BigShred]

Okay, allow me to explain. I own a couple of Warmoths and, frankly, I think they are pretty darned close to Fender's custom shop as far as quality goes...and I used to work for Fender. Warmoth really pushes their brainchild which is the compound radius at 10" at the nut up to 16" at the heel. This works great for some people in that they can chord easily in the lower frets, and "shred" easier on the higher frets. Yet, this does not work for me at all and I've come across many players this doesn't work for. Ascending licks are very uncomfortable like playing an ascending E Harmonic Minor starting at the 12th fret really fast.

When I get on a regular Fender Strat with a 9.5 radius, ascending scales fly and they are crystal clear. That arch on the 9.5 radius really helps with ascending licks. Yes, bending will be harder, but are you seriously bending strings E, A, and D? Not even Zakk Wylde will bend them that much. However, strings G, B and (high) E are more snappy and articulate on a flatter wide board.

So I'm trying to explore a compromise between the comfort the arch gives on the lower strings with a 9.5" radius and the "shreddiness" of a flatter board on the higher strings.

I realize there will be a LOT of trial and error and I've had plenty of people tell me I am retarded, but, I own the Carvewright so I figure I'll put it to some good use aside from carving out ornaments to give people as gifts :)

I've been playing guitar for 25 years, so I'm not exactly a beginner ;)



sounds backwards - I would think you'd want the flatter radius on the higher strings so that bends don't "fret out" , but there is a nice curve for your hand while playing chords. This is the same idea with the compound radius lengthwise - smaller, rounder radius near the nut where you play chords and the lower strings and flatter as you move toward the bridge where you play the higher strings more often and do bigger bends.

Also - why a 1.5" board? Are you doing a one-piece maple fretboard and neck? Why not make a double-sided carve that also routes the neck shape?

[BigShred]

Here's a fretboard I am working on. It's got a 7.5" radius at the nut and goes to a 2" radius at the bridge. It's far a special project that's a bit different (and backward from most compound radius guitars).

Dude, that is so freaking cool. I love it when people actually think outside of the box and explore ways to play aside from how they are told to play.

[hogiewan]

Dude, that is so freaking cool. I love it when people actually think outside of the box and explore ways to play aside from how they are told to play.

Stick around - it gets better. I don't want to reveal too much until I at least have a prototype, and I won't have a lot of time until around/after Christmas

[hogiewan]

That radius makes sense, I just read it wrong.

Seriously, if you plan on using this machine to build guitars, you should jump in and build all of the parts. Make a bunch of neck profiles, widths and depths out of pine just to see what they feel like in your hand and then you can use better wood.

[hogiewan]

Here's the board you wanted - 11.5 on one side and a smooth curve to 9.5 on the other. The pattern is .2" deep

[BigShred]

Here's the board you wanted - 11.5 on one side and a smooth curve to 9.5 on the other. The pattern is .2" deep

Awesome! So I would cut out a box 2.25" on one end and 1.75" on the other to make an electric guitar fretboard/neck right?

[hogiewan]

Awesome! So I would cut out a box 2.25" on one end and 1.75" on the other to make an electric guitar fretboard/neck right?

you could, but you wouldn't get the full radius changes at the nut, only at the very end of the board.

[BigShred]

you could, but you wouldn't get the full radius changes at the nut, only at the very end of the board.

I don't think there's any way to escape that. The best you could get away with is probably 1-7/8" (47.62mm). I do have long fingers so I'd be okay with that.

[hogiewan]

I don't think there's any way to escape that. The best you could get away with is probably 1-7/8" (47.62mm). I do have long fingers so I'd be okay with that.

It could be modeled that way, but it's a bit more work as you have to account for the square part at the neck heel as well.

[BigShred]

It could be modeled that way, but it's a bit more work as you have to account for the square part at the neck heel as well.

I'm open to suggestions. What's your take on the best way to do this?

[hogiewan]

learn to draw in 3D, either with a program that will export as a heightmap that Designer can use or buy the STL importer

[BigShred]

learn to draw in 3D, either with a program that will export as a heightmap that Designer can use or buy the STL importer

I actually used to be really good with 3ds Max when I was in college. What 3d software packages export to gradient height maps? 3ds Max is a bit pricey when you're no longer a student :)

[hogiewan]

I actually used to be really good with 3ds Max when I was in college. What 3d software packages export to gradient height maps? 3ds Max is a bit pricey when you're no longer a student :)

I got an older copy of Solidworks from someone who upgraded. It doesn't export the heightmaps, but you could use carvepic (only $45) to generate the heightmaps from many 3D formats.

You could use Google Sketchup (free) as well, but drawing smooth curves is a hassle (you have to set the amount of sides for arcs, circles, etc and a lot of sides makes some operations slow and painful to do) and you need a plugin for drawing bezier curves. However, a fretboard is easily generated with this plugin: http://www.guitar-list.com/download-software/conical-tapered-fretboard-plugin

[liquidguitars]

Fist and foremost to make this work you need to build a carving sled to the correct size thats .25" bigger than Designer's layout overall.

what size?

lets say my fretboard is 18.25 long I add a extra 10" to Designer for a finished size of 28.25 min this gives you the room you need to screw down the wood at the ends also i need some side rails so add a extra 2" or so in y.

my sled size is 30"x 5.5"

next its important to have a way to re start the CW if you have a power outage and not wast expensive rain forest wood or add to the destruction of the Lemurs population, so a layout process needs to be thought out and Designer scale needs be in unison to the wood you cut.

How do i index a part?

One way to do this is to layout the sled using a thin outline cut of the raster " i use the 1/16 bit" before you glue the side rails to the wood. this way you can see where the parts fit in the sled, also layout the tails and side rails at the same time. Basically Designer does the layout marks. just add the wood blocks to the scribe lines. quick and simple now we are 1:1 with the exception of the 1/4" needed on the sled to max out the board sensor.

How do i load the sled without using tape on the top?

load the sled tails under the board sensor and not in the center of the machine.

How do i get the CW to cut in the same place every time?

use "place on corner" and do not center at the keypad prompt.

Is it better to scan the part or use 3D?

3D is by far the better way to go as you can make small changes to the pattern without the need to re scan, use the STL program if you have the cash if not gradient.

What the heck is this 3D BS?

If you do not know how to make 3D objects do not panic its not hard but it take some skill. Call a local Cad Cam shop ask for a "3D guy" give him some cash or trade "we need the work 2" if not, scan the parts run them in the CW compare the parts and add bondo to compensate for the carving bit, re do the process until your part fits.

why not just sand the fretboard?

After you get a working sled with your compound raster, then it's a snap to add frets and inlays The CW will save hrs of time.

Here is a video i did last year using the 1/4" ball nose bit note: Use a bit with a DOC of .50" :

http://www.liquidguitars.com/RaduisFingerII.wmv
LG

[BigShred]

Wow! LG just posted the million dollar post of the year :) Thanks, man! Brilliant!

About Carvepic, I know the pros, what are some of the cons? I'd like to know its limitations before purchasing it. I downloaded it, but didn't get around to using it and by the time I did, the trial expired :/