Curious machine behavior

[jgowrie]

Hey guys,

I'm running my second of two projects right now. Both projects have been built entirely on vector paths. The first one I had designer build the paths by using the "outline pattern" button. This one is based on images brought in as centerline fonts. Both projects are for cabinet doors, so I split the patterns visible region on the virtual board and created a left and right file.

The machine keeps moving the cutting bit in past the squaring guide. Closer to the keypad and actually about 1/2" past the edge of the board. It's making cuts out in space not occupied by the board.

The first project turned out fine. It exhibited this behavior on both doors, but the complete pattern was correctly cut into the board with no errors.

Has anyone got an explanation as to why this is happening?

I have a short video taken on my phone which I'll submit when this job stops cutting. I will also upload my mpc files in the event I am laying out the patterns incorrectly. I know the machine actually rotates the image 180 degrees from what displayed on the screen so maybe I need to change something in my Designer layout. hmmm

John

[AskBud]

The top of Designer, is the Keyboard side of the carve.
Anything that overhangs that side will carve off the board (That's what I've found on specific carves).
If it is a recess, across the board, it could cause trouble with the rollers dropping. You may find it better, sometimes to use a sled or rails to accommodate the excess.
AskBud

[jgowrie]

Hey Bud,

that must be what is happening because that is the way I laid out the carving in designer.

So, I guess the key is to overhang the carving pattern off the other side of the designer board? Won't it end up carving off the board again, just on the other side of the machine?

[AskBud]

Hey Bud,

that must be what is happening because that is the way I laid out the carving in designer.

So, I guess the key is to overhang the carving pattern off the other side of the designer board? Won't it end up carving off the board again, just on the other side of the machine?

here is a picture of the carve where I discovered the situation. Lucky for me, the design was on a larger board and it did not destroy my sides. I was only after what was inside the cut-out, or I would have had to re-think my design. I had thought/hoped anything outside the board would not carve, but now I see potential situations where that may not be true.
AskBud

[mtylerfl]

Hey Bud,

that must be what is happening because that is the way I laid out the carving in designer.

So, I guess the key is to overhang the carving pattern off the other side of the designer board? Won't it end up carving off the board again, just on the other side of the machine?

Hello,

I'm not sure what's going on there, but doing a design overhang off either the top or the bottom of a board layout shouldn't cause the machine to carve "off the board". Perhaps the vectors are revealing a bug?? I don't know.

In my Tips & Tricks July 2009 article, "My Big Sign" (http://www.carvebuddy.com/PDFs/CW_TipsandTricks_Newsletters/CarveWrightTips&Tricks_Jul09.pdf), the design was laid out by overhanging off the top and the bottom of each respective board for the top and bottom halves of the sign. This is common practice for projects that have to be carved in sections then glued together to achieve the final "large size".

Also, I found that a tiny "lip" is left on the edge of the board where the design hangs off to prevent the rollers from dropping into a carved "cavity" - I believe that is intentional by design.

I'm wondering if your mpc would give us a clue as to why you are experiencing the behavior you described.

EDIT: I just re-read your original post and saw that you stated the project did come out alright. I think I may have a possible reason for the behavior. There is a "lead-in" programmed for some bits. Perhaps the bit is performing the sloped lead-in off the surface of the board in order to assure the pattern on the board is indeed carved correctly. I am totally guessing, but perhaps a call to Tech Support would yield a definitive answer.

[jgowrie]

Hello,

I'm not sure what's going on there, but doing a design overhang off either the top or the bottom of a board layout shouldn't cause the machine to carve "off the board". Perhaps the vectors are revealing a bug?? I don't know.

In my Tips & Tricks July 2009 article, "My Big Sign" (http://www.carvebuddy.com/PDFs/CW_TipsandTricks_Newsletters/CarveWrightTips&Tricks_Jul09.pdf), the design was laid out by overhanging off the top and the bottom of each respective board for the top and bottom halves of the sign. This is common practice for projects that have to be carved in sections then glued together to achieve the final "large size".

Also, I found that a tiny "lip" is left on the edge of the board where the design hangs off to prevent the rollers from dropping into a carved "cavity" - I believe that is intentional by design.

I'm wondering if your mpc would give us a clue as to why you are experiencing the behavior you described.

EDIT: I just re-read your original post and saw that you stated the project did come out alright. I think I may have a possible reason for the behavior. There is a "lead-in" programmed for some bits. Perhaps the bit is performing the sloped lead-in off the surface of the board in order to assure the pattern on the board is indeed carved correctly. I am totally guessing, but perhaps a call to Tech Support would yield a definitive answer.

Hi Michael,

It was actually your Tips and Tricks article where I learned I didn't have to cut the image into two separate image files in order to get them to be equally spread across two cabinet doors. So I'm instead lining up the center of the pattern with the edge of the board.

I've attached the mpc files to this message so you can see what I've got. Tonight I ran the Leftdoor.mpc and it came out just as seen in the designer file with no issues.

I have to say that it certainly doesn't look like "lead in" to me. While that makes sense and I'm sure it's set up to work that way, this was clearly an issue of the machine was carving out in space off the board. It would sit off the board moving around following a path. In some cases it was a minute or two of this. All together, I'd say it spent about 10 minutes of a 2hr24min carve exhibiting this behavior.

Anyway, the mpc files are here if they will give a clue as to what may be going on and I'll contact tech support and ask them to have a look at this thread and the files. I've got a short video, which isn't very clear since it's from a phone but here is the link:
http://qik.ly/q6Vt

*EDIT* While you are watching this video, notice the drop off in RPM's which occurs around 24 remaining and again at 4 secs remaining. Is this normal when carving vectors? I have been getting the "check cut motor" message so if it's not normal, then maybe it's something I need to investigate.
Thanks,
John

[mtylerfl]

Hi John,

Thanks for posting the mpc's. Your layout looks fine to me - I don't see any problems. (The "OReily" text shows on my screen as a plain sans-serif font, but is labeled "Old English" so I think that may just be because I may not have that particular font on my system.)

I did watch your video. It appears to be "thinking" when it is off the board. I do not know if this is normal behavior when using Centerline overhanging off the board or not. In any case, you probably agree that Tech Support should be notified about this. It is possible that the programmers will want to look into the matter. ***Might be a good idea to make a post in the "Bug Swatting" thread here on the forum which I believe the programmers check regularly.*** sorry - I just checked - that thread appears to be closed***

As far as RPM's changing - I do notice that especially when doing Centerline - I think that is normal.

The Check Cut Motor message could be a false error, though...or, your cut motor brushes may be wearing out, or the cover switch (on the right side) might be causing the message (vibration, sawdust in it, wearing out - just guessing)...or the message might simply be a "bug". Again, Tech Support might shed more light.

[jgowrie]

I spoke with Robert this morning from the tech support and he and the software team are looking into this. I directed him to this thread so he could access the video and .mpc files. Seems like it's not normal behavior so I'm glad I contacted them and I'll let you know what I hear.

Have to say they are very pleasant to deal with so a big thumbs up for Robert and the rest of the C.S. department at Carvewright :D

[mtylerfl]

Hi John,

I also sent the link to one of the software programmers this morning.

[jgowrie]

I called them yesterday to see what they found out, since I never heard back from them like promised. The gentleman I spoke to said there was nothing in the system about this incident.. hmmm. He took the info again and created an incident and I was told he would try to contact me by the end of the day, but tomorrow ( which is now today ) for sure.

Hoping for an answer on this soon before that bit wanders around too much while it's moving around off the board and ruins a set of cabinet doors on me :mad:

[jgowrie]

Just send another email as I STILL have not heard back from anyone on this issue....

Comon' customer service. You've twice promised me an answer now.

The last job I ran wasn't ruined but an errant "off the board" carving path caused a small nick to be taken out of the board in the machine.


To be continued...

[jgowrie]

I never did get any straight answers on what was causing this accept that I would have to live with it. Not exactly what I was hoping for but apparently it's not an issue that affects enough users to warrant a deeper look.

I've since completed several more projects which are split across two separate boards and each one has turned out fine with no errors. But each one also runs for about an hour over the estimated finish time and it's all due to the machine moving around off the board following a path without actually cutting into the project board.

Just updating this thread as I forgot to post a resolution to it in the advent someone else experiences this issue and searches the forum for an answer.

[Digitalwoodshop]

Sounds like it has something to do with project size.... I see you are touting some bit map to vector magic.... Since you are the only one having problems with the bit wondering off the board and trying to cut AIR.... It could be your Vector Program is not compatible with Designer....

Like the Laser Users converting a picture to PhotoGrav to engrave in wood and then change the image size... They get lines in the picture... A USER error... as you should size the picture FIRST the convert with Photograv.

It could be something as simple as your vector conversion program....

AL

[jgowrie]

Hi Al,

I don't use that program at all now. All of my vector routing is performed through importing graphics into a font and letting the machine work with the graphics as Centerline Text.

This happens even when I'm running nothing but text which gets split across two project boards by way of two MPC files. The programmers at CW downloaded the MPC files and I suppose ran the job. Nothing about user error was mentioned.

[Foxfurniture]

Help, help, I'. having so much trouble with my unit it's not even funny, I have nine(9) of usage on my machine and I'm getting an "clear board sensor error, which I've been cleaning all the time and not the working bridge will not come down no matter how many times I try to turn it down, what's up with that, I'm so sick if this.

[AskBud]

Help, help, I'. having so much trouble with my unit it's not even funny, I have nine(9) of usage on my machine and I'm getting an "clear board sensor error, which I've been cleaning all the time and not the working bridge will not come down no matter how many times I try to turn it down, what's up with that, I'm so sick if this.

If by "working bridge" you mean the "Head" of the machine, you may have raised it too high. When this happens, you look at the "threaded rod" on the side away from the keypad. You will see a hole in the rod. place an Allen wrench in the hole and turn the rod in the direction of the arrow near the base of the rod.

Did you clean the board sensor with anything other than a clean brush, and possibly "Dry" air pressure?
AskBud

[Foxfurniture]

If by "working bridge" you mean the "Head" of the machine, you may have raised it too high. When this happens, you look at the "threaded rod" on the side away from the keypad. You will see a hole in the rod. place an Allen wrench in the hole and turn the rod in the direction of the arrow near the base of the rod.

Did you clean the board sensor with anything other than a clean brush, and possibly "Dry" air pressure?
AskBud

I've tried dry air and a clean brush, and q-tips and clean it a few times this morning and it still comes up with the same problem

[PCW]

How about the sensor test?

At the keypad

Enter 0 followed by 7
Scroll down to board sensor
Place a piece of white paper directly under the sensor and you should have a reading of around 150.

[Foxfurniture]

How about the sensor test?

At the keypad

Enter 0 followed by 7
Scroll down to board sensor
Place a piece of white paper directly under the sensor and you should have a reading of around 150.
I'm getting a 28 on the reading,

[PCW]

I'm getting a 28 on the reading,

Is the paper right up to the sensor? If you have the paper away from the sensor the reading will be low.

[Foxfurniture]

Is the paper right up to the sensor? If you have the paper away from the sensor the reading will be low.


I have the head right on the paper, and I'm still getting a low reading, and I have the machine sitting in the sun

[PCW]

I have the head right on the paper, and I'm still getting a low reading, and I have the machine sitting in the sun

Sounds most likely like a bad board sensor but it could be several of the things listed below. Maybe Al (Digitalwoodshop) can offer some advice. One note of caution unplug the power cord before checking cables or you could fry a $300.00 controller. Also take a mirror and view the clear plastic cover on the sensor to make sure it is free of dust.

Board Sensor Wire Harness
Board Sensor Circuit Board
Flat Cable from Board Sensor Circuit Board to Y Termination Board
Y Termination Board
Ribbon Cable from Y Termination Board to Computer
Computer

[Foxfurniture]

Sounds most likely like a bad board sensor but it could be several of the things listed below. Maybe Al (Digitalwoodshop) can offer some advice. One note of caution unplug the power cord before checking cables or you could fry a $300.00 controller.

Board Sensor Wire Harness
Board Sensor Circuit Board
Flat Cable from Board Sensor Circuit Board to Y Termination Board
Y Termination Board
Ribbon Cable from Y Termination Board to Computer
Computer
I'll look in to all of these, how hard is it to replace the board sensor????? Can it be done at home????

I already called AL

[PCW]

I'll look in to all of these, how hard is it to replace the board sensor????? Can it be done at home????

I already called AL

Very easy.

Crank the machine up for clearance.
Remove two Phillips screws holding the sensor in place.
Unplug harness connector.

[AskBud]

I'll look in to all of these, how hard is it to replace the board sensor????? Can it be done at home????

I already called AL

Before you go further, try this.
Sometimes too much light is as bad as too little.
Move the unit to where the light is not as bright, or place some shade over it. See if that helps.
AskBud

[Foxfurniture]

Before you go further, try this.
Sometimes too much light is as bad as too little.
Move the unit to where the light is not as bright, or place some shade over it. See if that helps.
AskBud

I use it out on my deck and usually in the shade, but I took readings from the board sensor from a few angles and they all read the same, between 25-30.

[mtylerfl]

Sorry to hear about your board sensor problem. It's probably just fine dust behind the clear window and is blocking the LED's. The sensors are sealed pretty good now and the problem is not as common as it used to be. However, some folks who use MDF in their machines can still have dust get in behind the window (MDF dust is super nasty and can find its way anywhere).

You may need to order a new board sensor (very simple to install). In the meantime, you can simply remove the clear window by carefully prying it off using an X-Acto knife or whatever. With the window off it should work fine until your new sensor arrives, unless the sensor is actually broken. Hope that gets you going! (more details by AL posted here:http://forum.carvewright.com/showpost.php?p=125801&postcount=4)

EDIT: I forgot to ask a basic question - are you using a dark-colored wood? The sensor can't work properly on darks - you can place a piece of masking tape from the edges including the area where the sensor pans across to force it to work on dark woods.

[shotgun 6]

Yesterday I was doing a test on cutting out the letter "A" after watching a AskBud video on how to do it (don't believe I could get along without AskBuds help). I had prepared a piiece of scrap wood the proper dimensions but the wood had a knot on the keyborad side and one on the right side. The carve was designed to go in between the two knots. Everytime I would try to start I would get a "clear board sensor" error message. I cleaned the lens of the sensor, but still got the error. I blew compressed air on it but still got the error. Took the two screws holding the sensor to the truck out and the lens looked ok. Did the sensor check and everything was fine. Finally, after a couple of hours trouble shooting I decided to try another piece of wood -- no error! I went back and put masking tape on the knots of the original board but still got the error message. Finally threw that piece of wood away and put in a clear piece and it is carving just fine right now. Thought I'd post this as another troubleshooting check when the "clear board sensor" demon shows up on your machine.

Bill

[dcalvin4]

i had trouble with sensor finding edges , width, and length ...i try to help Als stock in masking tape so i always tape the bottm , so the brass roller has traction, the top along the width both sides [just a short chunk ,,dont want his stock to go too hi] and on both ends [length] and also removed the sensor with a short short phillips screwdriver and tooth brushed it out...i also put a newspaper dn on sandpaper drive belt so if an when i drop a screw it doesnt go clear dn to hell o land
denny