Board Glue Up?

[c6craig]

Hi All,

I am trying to carve a slightly modified Neoclassical Keepsake box lid in black walnut. The only board I could find wide enough to accomodate it was cupped pretty bad. I planed it out the best I could and it looked OK but after the carve I can still visually see the cupping, so obviously it isnt going to sit near flush.

I know it is common to glue up two smaller boards to make one large one, and that it is supposed to help with cupping and twisting. The POM instructions even mentions glueing up two boards for the lid.

My question is would that work for a carve like this? The carve takes away a good portion of the top half of the board, so would there still be enough strength in the glue up to hold it together?? There are still lots of high spots where the glue line would barely be hit but many that it would carve well into it... :confused:

Thanks,
Craig

[SteveEJ]

Glue it. Not a problem. Use a good wood glue. The lid will be more stable if you do!

If glued correctly with good glue it will probably be stronger that the wood itself. I have had wood split along the grain and a glue joint still hold strong.
Edge the wood properly, examine the end's of the wood and lay the wood correctly (grain wise - look on the net for tips), glue and clamp. I let it sit for 24 hours. Remove glue with scraper, plane to even the top and bottom and have fun carving!

[c6craig]

Thanks Steve - And I am ok with just glue? I dont have to try to join it with biscuits or finger joints or anything?

Thanks,
Craig

[cnsranch]

Craig

You're fine with just glue - I've done some larger signs with no biscuits, with no stress on the piece, you really don't need them...

[Ike]

Thanks Steve - And I am ok with just glue? I dont have to try to join it with biscuits or finger joints or anything?

Thanks,
Craig

Craig two words Gorilla Glue! Follow the instructions and wet the edge and it will foam up, then all you need to do plane or scrape the glue and then sand.

With such a small board I wouldn't worry about dowels or biscuits. It is not supporting any weight. Shoot I stop doweling signs under 3' by 6' Gorilla glue is good stuff!

Ike

[c6craig]

Thanks guys, i was hoping that was the case. Gorilla glue it is...

Craig

[seabass]

Ah Gorilla glue expands(they say it doesn't) and is horrible to clean up and does not holdup as well as you would think. Actually I hate Gorilla glue, it simply is not a good glue.

The best glue, stronger than polyurethane, water proof, water clean up and attaches oily wood and simpler to use is Titebond III.

I will put Titebond III against Gorilla Glue anytime. Passes the water boiling test with flying colors and cleans up with ease.

[mtylerfl]

Ike,

I have NOT used Gorilla glue myself, so I'm not an authority. However, the reason I haven't tried it is because so many folks steered me away from it (for similar reasons SeaBass stated).

So you have good luck with it? Would you say it's superior to TiteBond III? That's the stuff I use.

Say, I finally ordered some of that new TiteBond "super-glue" specially formulated stuff for woodworkers. Gonna try it out on a few projects and see how it works out. I have been using the "standard hobby super-glue" for years to tack parts in place, while still applying regular TiteBond III too. (The super-glue was just to hold everything while the TiteBond cured.) Supposedly, the new TiteBond "super-glue" is good all by itself, but I don't know if I'll have the courage to use that alone or not! We'll see!

[seabass]

Not only have I had good luck with it, I have cleaned out my shop of any other glue and only use it and West Systems Epoxy. The only reason not to use it is cost, but unless you literally need thousands of gallons the money saved is quite minimal. I use about 50 gallons every 6 months and am very happy.

If Titebond III can not handle it nothing will other than the West Systems, which I really only use for marine applications where there is constant water contact. I have stuff outside with the Titebond III for years and still holding up strong. I live in the Chicago area and the weather changes are brutal. It could be 80 one day, 20 the next, the glue handles it. The best thing is the clean up so easy! I can't say enough about it.

[Ike]

Ah Gorilla glue expands(they say it doesn't) and is horrible to clean up and does not holdup as well as you would think. Actually I hate Gorilla glue, it simply is not a good glue.

The best glue, stronger than polyurethane, water proof, water clean up and attaches oily wood and simpler to use is Titebond III.

I will put Titebond III against Gorilla Glue anytime. Passes the water boiling test with flying colors and cleans up with ease.


Yes it expands, that is why you use a thin layer. That's what makes the world go around I use redwood for outdoor applications others will say cedar is the best. And that is ok what works for one person isn't for another.

So Craig it boils down to what you like! Myself I have never boiled my glue or projects! Now in seabass' work he needs to use what works the best! I have have not had any issues with GG as long as I don't over apply it! You wet both sides and apply a thin coat on one side only and then clamp.

I have no issues with Titebond it is a great product, takes longer to set but still will last for life. In all gluing if done correctly you will have great results!

When it comes to dowels or biscuits I go with dowels I don't like biscuits! Either way Craig you can't go wrong with TB you have more set up time to adjust the fitting perfect. With GG if you apply too much you defeat the process and yes don't get a tight bond.

So more is not better with GG, as forth to clean up it is a mess if you get it on your hands and takes days for it to go away. I always use rubber gloves when using GG. It isn't just water clean up like TB, where you use a lot and squeeze out excess.

I have had great results with GG and with TB so it is your choice! Thanks seabass for pointing out the negative side of GG! I don't find it enough of an issue to stop using it. Plus I know under normal weather conditions it fairs great.

Then again it depends on the project. So you can't go wrong with both in my opinion!

Ike

[dbfletcher]

Yes it expands, that is why you use a thin layer. That's what makes the world go around I use redwood for outdoor applications others will say cedar is the best. And that is ok what works for one person isn't for another.

So Craig it boils down to what you like! Myself I have never boiled my glue or projects! Now in seabass' work he needs to use what works the best! I have have not had any issues with GG as long as I don't over apply it! You wet both sides and apply a thin coat on one side only and then clamp.

I have no issues with Titebond it is a great product, takes longer to set but still will last for life. In all gluing if done correctly you will have great results!

When it comes to dowels or biscuits I go with dowels I don't like biscuits! Either way Craig you can't go wrong with TB you have more set up time to adjust the fitting perfect. With GG if you apply too much you defeat the process and yes don't get a tight bond.

So more is not better with GG, as forth to clean up it is a mess if you get it on your hands and takes days for it to go away. I always use rubber gloves when using GG. It isn't just water clean up like TB, where you use a lot and squeeze out excess.

I have had great results with GG and with TB so it is your choice! Thanks seabass for pointing out the negative side of GG! I don't find it enough of an issue to stop using it. Plus I know under normal weather conditions it fairs great.

Then again it depends on the project. So you can't go wrong with both in my opinion!

Ike


Ike,

just curious... why dont you like biscuits? Personally.. i love them.... and in find the use of a biscuit cutter aloows me to get very precise alignement of the pieces. I had tried doweling in the past, but it was alway hit or miss with getting perfect alignment. But then again.. I probably just didnt have the skills to do it. The biscuit cutter help me make up lots of ground in that area.

Doug Fletcher

[Ike]

Ike,

just curious... why dont you like biscuits? Personally.. i love them.... and in find the use of a biscuit cutter aloows me to get very precise alignement of the pieces. I had tried doweling in the past, but it was alway hit or miss with getting perfect alignment. But then again.. I probably just didnt have the skills to do it. The biscuit cutter help me make up lots of ground in that area.

Doug Fletcher

Doug just proving my point! I have been doweling way before biscuits came out and with a good jig it works well. I found dowels to be stronger and with me biscuits are hit and miss! I always plane all the boards before joining and with a dowel jig I get center every time. Not so with biscuits!

So like seabass doesn't like Gorilla Glue I don't care for biscuits! Why because we both found something that works better or each of us!

I am set in my ways and learned how to dowel first and have become good at it and didn't care for biscuits. Well unless they have butter and honey and are hot out of the oven!

Ike

[Ike]

Ike,

I have NOT used Gorilla glue myself, so I'm not an authority. However, the reason I haven't tried it is because so many folks steered me away from it (for similar reasons SeaBass stated).

So you have good luck with it? Would you say it's superior to TiteBond III? That's the stuff I use.

Say, I finally ordered some of that new TiteBond "super-glue" specially formulated stuff for woodworkers. Gonna try it out on a few projects and see how it works out. I have been using the "standard hobby super-glue" for years to tack parts in place, while still applying regular TiteBond III too. (The super-glue was just to hold everything while the TiteBond cured.) Supposedly, the new TiteBond "super-glue" is good all by itself, but I don't know if I'll have the courage to use that alone or not! We'll see!

I am not saying GG is superior to TB III that isn't a fair question. I will choose GG first because of it's proven strength and quick drying. If you over apply it yes it will expand and not achieve a good bond. With woodworkers glue you apply a heavy coat and clamp and wipe off excess with a wet cloth.

With GG as the instructions reads apply a thin layer to one edge only after moistening both edges to activate the glue. A little goes a long way so if you use it like carpenter glue not only are you wasting it you are comprising your joint.

I only edge glue using just glue with smaller applications. I try not to waste my precious old growth so I will glue cracked or damaged boards to make 12" boards so I don't want to carve into a dowel.

I do this for signs up to 36" wide. Other then if not wearing gloves while using it and how hard it is to get off your hands I have great success using GG.

Again I do not claim to be an expert and only offered a suggestion to Rick. He can try it or not, if he goes with TB III then he will be ok too it is his choice! Lol you would think I had suggested to use hot glue!

Ike

[SteveEJ]

I used to use GG but stopped. It is a real pain to get off of the hands and I had problems with it holding boards that were in the weather. I to have been using TB. Easier to work with and easier clean up IMHO.

The problem with either biscuits or dowell in pieces being carved is carving into them. Otherwise use them in non carved areas if you want. Takes a little more planning though.

[Ike]

I used to use GG but stopped. It is a real pain to get off of the hands and I had problems with it holding boards that were in the weather. I to have been using TB. Easier to work with and easier clean up IMHO.

The problem with either biscuits or dowell in pieces being carved is carving into them. Otherwise use them in non carved areas if you want. Takes a little more planning though.

I have never had any issues GG in the weather, but to each to their own I am not saying one glue is better then the other. I like GG and yes I like Tite bond too.

Rick I am sorry I said anything about GG go with Tite bond III! I seem to be the only one who has used GG with success!

Ike

[seabass]

Gorilla Glue does work, don't get us wrong..

[jgowrie]

I don't recall the issue, but there was a glue round up in a past issue of Woodworking magazine and they rate the old tried and true yellow wood glue the second highest on joint strength. A two-part epoxy was the one glue that beat it. Gorilla glue ( polyurethane ) came up surprisingly low in the results. There was a lot of hype when it first came out, but I have never really liked all that much myself. I used to use it for outdoor projects like Adirondack chairs.

Regular yellow glue is not good for outdoor projects so make sure you are paying attention if you intend on putting your piece outdoors. Get an exterior rated yellow wood glue.

I am constantly gluing up 1x4 or 1x3 to make cabinet doors and I have always used regular carpenters glue - Elmurs or Tightbond. The glue joint is stronger than the wood itself when done properly. I like to run a bead on the edge to be glued, and apply it to BOTH pieces you are joining. Spread it out with a small paint brush to be sure the surface is completely covered in glue. By simply putting the glue on only one edge and then rubbing the two edges together as a method of spreading the glue, you risk leaving dry spots will can cause failure of the glue joint. Then join 'em up with some good parallel clamps ( cabinet clamps ) and let it set overnight. ( Some may say you can remove the clamps when the glue dries but I prefer to keep it clamped up for at least several hours. You can never have too many clamps ;) ) Run it through a benchtop planer ( both sides ) and your done.

Two things to pay attention to - make sure you alternate the growth rings. That is to say, if the first boards rings are up, the adjacent boards should be opposite. Continue that pattern over the number of boards you are using. This will limit any potential cupping from becoming a big issue. Hard to explain in words but I'm sure you can find a good example on the internet if you are not sure what I'm talking about.

The second thing is the alignment of the boards so they create the flattest possible surface. There will most likely be some difference and that is part of what the bench planer will take care of , but you want to get it as close as possible during glueup so you limit the amount of wood removed by the planer. If the boards have a mind of thier own ( and let's face it - quality of lumber today isn't always the best ) you can use biscuits to help pull them into alignment. Just make note of where the boards are offset the most and put biscuits in those places.

IMO, there is no need to glue the biscuits in because they are a very weak method of forming a joint and as long as you have spread your glue out properly and you don't overclamp your boards ( too much pressure squeezing out too much glue ) the biscuits will do nothing more that help with your alignment and don't contribute to the strength of the glue-up.

I was looking through a google search trying to find something about the growth rings but didn't. This article though is pretty good and repeats mu
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/10_28smithglupan.html

[c6craig]

Thanks to everyone for all the great info.

I have read a few articles and they all pretty much are in line with the advice here. I simply prefer to get experiences from people vs online articles.

So I guess the other question I have is this - To make a 12" wide board - Am I better off to glue up 2 six inch boards or should I be looking at 3 or 4 smaller boards? Does it matter? I would prefer to only have to do 2 boards as it is less to line up and one more joint that I dont have to worry about doing wrong and failing later. Is there a benefit to multiple smaller boards vs 2?

Thanks again to all, great information here.....

Craig

[cnsranch]

The only benefit to smaller boards is less chance of cupping - assuming you alternate them as you glue them up.

More joints = more "lines" showing where they're glued up, if you don't have them jointed well, or the grains aren't matched up.

Also, it depends on their use - in a sign that's 14" wide, if you can get by with 2 pieces that are straight, etc., go for it. No stress on a sign hanging on a wall.

In almost any event, a well jointed and glued joint will hold better than the wood around it - in other words, the piece will break along a wood's grain before it will break at the glued joint.

[c6craig]

As this is a box lid and I want to get it as flat as possible, am I reading you right to say I am better of with maybe 3 boards instead of 2 to make the 12"?

The cupping is exactly what I am trying to avoid. I carved this existing lid in black walnut and I dont exactly like throwing this cupped piece of 24"x12" board in the burn pile....sure is pretty wood.

Thanks,
Craig

[jgowrie]

How long have you had the wood on hand that it cupped? I have had times where I've brought in a panel which was glued up from 4 1*4's and the change of enviroment of my garage to basement caused the panel to cup. In one case, fairly severely. But after about
8 days it settled down almost flat.

In the end, wider boards tend to cup more easily. If you are already dealing with a piece I'd wood that is cupped and you are talking about ripping it down and then regluing it, you will probably see some impovement but I wouldn't count on getting it to stay perfectly flat.

[c6craig]

jgowrie-

I am abandoning the existing carved lid and trying again with a new board made from glued up boards. The glued up pieces that I will use to make the new board will not be cupped, my goal is to keep it from cupping after the carve.

The lid that I carved out of a full size 12" wide board had a slight cup to it when it came out of the carver, I had hoped it would settle down, but it has sat for 5 days now and instead of settling down it is just cupping worse and worse as time goes by. It's to the point now I can lay it on top of a flat board and rock it back and forth...

Thanks,
Craig

[jgowrie]

jgowrie-

I am abandoning the existing carved lid and trying again with a new board made from glued up boards. The glued up pieces that I will use to make the new board will not be cupped, my goal is to keep it from cupping after the carve.

The lid that I carved out of a full size 12" wide board had a slight cup to it when it came out of the carver, I had hoped it would settle down, but it has sat for 5 days now and instead of settling down it is just cupping worse and worse as time goes by. It's to the point now I can lay it on top of a flat board and rock it back and forth...

Thanks,
Craig

Wood is a curious thing!

I usually stay away from boards wider than 1x6 and opt to glue up my own boards when I need something over that. If you can find a nice lumber yard that deals with hardwoods, I'm sure they have a moisture meter on hand they would let you borrow while you are choosing your piece. Sounds like the board you got probably had a higher moisture content.

As long as you are picky about the pieces you pick to build your panel with, and double check the growth rings and make sure you have them alternated in the glue-up, you should end up with a stable panel.

Good luck!

John