Depth Problem....helppppp

[tagstudios]

Hi everyone.I'm at my wits end. My machine (which I love)
at times has had issues with depth control. When carving
a piece all is well until reaches the half-way mark (50%).
At that point the bit starts cutting deeper into the piece.
As it cuts it leaves ripples and waves as the bit decends. I've had
this problem before and was told to clean the machine or
check the Z-Truck. Ok,each time after blowing out dust with
my air compressor and vaccuming out the nooks and crannies
it seemed to improve. But it persists in starting again,
especially with longer pieces. I'm only blowing and vaccuming
the exposed areas,so I'm not sure if I'm getting all the dust
out from underneath the belts.I get no stall warnings on the
LED so i'm really not sure what exactly the problem is..
Also,I am the kind of fix-it guy/mechanic that has TONS of
broken appliances around the house because I just don't fix
things very well.I always have left over parts,etc..Because
of this I am scared to death to try and tackle the Z-truck
but I'm afraid I really have no choice at this point.I'm
carving a small mantel face for a guy who's building a new
house. I did a sample tonight on a 28x11
piece of soft maple and all was well until the 50% point,
then the ripples and waves started again.The 0.250 depth
quickly dropped to around 0.600.....He's looking for the
piece sometime over the weekend..so tomorrow I'm gonna have
to go into the Z-truck.....Here are some questions....is
this definately a Z-truck issue? Or a roller issue? a belt
issue? unlevel outfeed tray? Has this happened to others?
What am I looking for on the Z? I keep its exposed areas
very clean and free of dust so I'm assuming its actually
in the Z housing itself. I know there is an easy fix to
this,but I don't have the mechanical apptitue or the fortitude
to tear it apart...Are there any threads that cover this?...PDFs??....I could sure use some good advise here fellas.......

[tagstudios]

OK....I've been reading a few posts and am getting the impression that it may be the Z-motor encoder.....does this sound right to anyone else?

[unitedcases]

Sounds right, that is a common one. You have to take the screws off the back and very lightly just blow it out. It really doesnt take much. Be careful too because there is a gasket that likes to fall out once you take the cover off. Good Luck

[tagstudios]

Thanks unitedcases...I will certainly be careful of the small screws and the gasket..and....since I've got your attention let me ask you another question....My father in-law served in the Corp. for many years and I want to carve him something comemorating that. I've got a couple of Eagle/Anchor/Globe patterns but he got a Bronze Star at the Chosin Resovoir. Is there some motto or ensignia that all Marines would instantly recognize as representative of Chosin Resovoir?....Thanks in advance for any help.......

[Digitalwoodshop]

Depth problems....

In feed and out feed need to be level and correctly adjusted. I tilting or drooping board and cause this.

A loose bit in the bit holder can cause this.

A pile of sawdust on the board can act like a speed bump and lift the head slightly. Under normal conditions the rubber won't give too much and it not much of a bump.... Now if the bolts that come up from the bottom of the machine into the 4 smooth posts are loose like I found in one of my machines it will let the locked in head lift.... This could be your problem....

The Z Encoder having dust in it also is a good call too....

AL

[tagstudios]

Thanks Al.....I'm not near the machine at present but this evening I will check out the trays,the bit and the bolts before I actually start getting into
the guts of the machine..............

[tagstudios]

this is a picture of the 28 x 11 sample of the mantel face.....You might not see the ripples and waves clearly but you can def. see the drop in depth....the in-feed tray is approx 1/32 lower while out-feed tray looks dead-on.....I could be wrong but I don't understand how that much mis-alignment could cause these types of drastic flaws....so process of elimination (at this point) sez its not the trays.............Also.......if you look closely at the ribs on the shell you will notice those close to the center are flattened off at their highest point (999).................one down...many to go....

[jab73180]

my machine did something like that and it was the chuck unscrewing from the spindle. replaced with the rock and solved my problems.

[jab73180]

my machine did something like that and it was the chuck unscrewing from the spindle. replaced with the rock and solved my problems.

[tagstudios]

With only 53 hrs.(in 8 months) on my machine can the chuck be worn out already????

[jab73180]

yeah it can be. are there any bb marks on the adapter? mine was junk after a couple hours because i wasnt inserting right into the qc. if you do have bb marks on your chuck, that allows runout of the bit, which leads to heat in the spindle and flex shaft, which in turn puts more wear on the machine itself. I think that is what happened to my shaft. if i were you, i would take the money you would use to buy a new qc and buy a rock. you will be super happy with it!!

[Eagle Hollow]

When I had this problem, the bit was loose in the adapter.

[tagstudios]

bb marks?.......................

[Digitalwoodshop]

BB Marks.... The result of the bit holder being held by 3 pin point contact parts by hardened ball bearings. The high speed spinning and side stress on the bit results in the BB's acting as a jack hammer and make BB marks in the bit holders. This results in the bit fluttering in the QC holder and making a high frequency noise and giving you a poor carving....

The only fix is replace the QC and all worn bit holders.... Replace either just the QC or Bit holders and it will happen again shortly.... MUST be replaced as a set.... And this is expensive... The ROCK solves this problem.... Replace is ONCE and DONE.... Replace the QC and Bit Holders and you will be doing it again soon....

As you can see by the 1 hour bit holder.... Worn already.... This was in the first year before I learned that the worn QC had to be replaced.... In the beginning we thought that the QC was hardened more than the Bit Holders and the Bit Holders were a consumable....

What we later found was the QC Wings or metal contact parts were not as hard as we thought and once the cup or wings of the QC was worn, a new bit holder could still wobble in the QC and the BB's Jack Hammer BB marks into the new Bit holder.....

The Result was BURNING of the 1/8 inch bit for a Cut Path and POOR Quality Pattern Cuts... I even had the center of the A's chipping out using the QC and a 3/8 bit doing outline text.... Do the same text today with the ROCK and NO chip out of the A's....

AL

[tagstudios]

ok...i took the bit out and it looks almost pristine...of course there is some wear on the lower collar..but nothing as severe as the photo Al posted....mine looks more like the new bit than the 1 hr. bit..so....i'm going to assume that the problem is not bit looseness or the chuck itself.....whew!!!..that is a HUGE relief..LOL.......tried to download some pics of my bit but I can't get nikon transfere to work.Technology will be the death of me yet!!!!


(while taking the bit out the release was hard to raise....it gave me a lot of difficulty..so it removed the flex shaft thinking that may have been a requisite move.....while doing so the bb fell out.....MAN i almost crapped in my wranglers!!!!!....bb recovered and reinstalled................what a nightmare..............)

p.s......i hate the word 'pristine'...it seems like it just shouldn't be uttered in a working shop..............LOL

[Digitalwoodshop]

SO another question....

7 Inch rule of WOOD..... Any chance you are NOT staying under rollers and both bumps in the pattern are 3.5 inches from the end of the physical board from the board popping out from under a roller...

A board not held flat to the table will do that...

AL

[tagstudios]

nope...i've got 7"rule down pat..first thing i learned........I thought warped boards might be part of the problem..but the boards i use that are so minutely warped as to barely be noticeable.....if there is a slight warp and the LED alerts me to a baord sensor problem i always tape the piece down to 2 or 3 straight runners and that always seems to work well enough for the machine to start its process and I always stay under the rollers........

the man that I'm making the mantel face for just called and he's getting worried about my ability to finish it quickly..there are a few $s at stake here..not a lot..but a few..............Tonight after the grand kid settles down wifey and i are going to pull the machine out of the shop and bring to the dining room table where i've got manuals and printed PDFs galore....it'll be major surgery but we're determined to get to the bottom of this.....Is there anything in the encoder mechanism that will need lube?..............

PS...without sounding too sappy i just want to say that having everyone's expertise available REALLY makes this whole thing much easier....I can't thank you guys enough...........

[tagstudios]

The more I hear about the Rock....the more I think I really want one......maybe I'll hit Santa up this year...........

[jab73180]

the rock is a very nice addition to the tool cabinet.

[earlyrider]

The encoder doesn't need any lube. Just take the cover off and gently blow the dust off. Some folks have had a problem with the disk being loose on the motor shaft. If this is your case, you might try putting a drop of thick superglue at the junction of the encoder flange and motor shaft.
Ron

[tagstudios]

Ok...I got the cover screws out and disconnected the head cover
cable harness...left the AC interrupt switch
cable connected and removed the cover....positioned the
Z-truck and took out the three screws from the encoder
cover and watched the 2 MICROSCOPIC nuts fall onto the
belt.....the encoder was spotless. Zero dust insde the cover
and not a spec on the encoder wheel...nothing that we could
see on it at all but we blew it off with some canned air
just to be sure.However,there was no gasket inside the cap....???...
..After unitedcases warning wifey and I both looked for it to fall but it never did....it just
wasn't in there.There was a bit of build up on the head screws so
I cleaned most everything off very thoroughly.
After the cover reassembly (those 2 micro nuts were a PAIN)
the flex shaft wouldn't connect properly.I think I've got
it in now but I'm still not sure if its in there good and
snug because now it pops back out with just the slightest
pressure when before I really had to pull hard to get it loose.
Its 4:30 in the morning and I don't want to start it up becuase
of the noise.I'll have to wait till the morning to check the
flex shaft under power.
Ok...back to the original problem. The trays are level.There are
no BB marks on the bit collar. The encoder looks fine as far as
I could tell.Its clean and tight with no dust inside the cover. Maybe just taking everything apart tonight did the trick...but I don't see how. My eyes are crossed and blood is squirting out of my ears. So....what can I do now???

[jab73180]

just a stupid question, do you have the extra depth set up in designer by mistake for some reason. i had that same problem with the flex shaft popping out, i rotated the metal spring collar around so the lil ball bearing is covered by it instead of the ball coming out through the hole a lil bit. just rotate the spring clip around so the ball bearing comes out to get the shaft out easier.

[Digitalwoodshop]

To test your machine for proper operation I would draw two 2 inch squares and select carve region and a depth of .075 or something light and let it carve... That will show any problems...

Back to the artwork... Select your pattern in the mpc and rotate it looking down the edge.... Could be noise in the art that is causing this...

AL

[liquidguitars]

One more thing to think about is if your z truck is running on bad bearings.

Remove the dust caps on the bearing and with a black pen make a mark on the bearings, move the truck up and down. Do all the bearing move freely? if not you could have a frozen bearing or just need to adjust the glide tracking. AL has a good method of realigning the cam ajustment

Sometimes you can clean the frozen bearing using wd40 and a drop of 3n1.

I not a fan of removing the back cover of the encoder. Once you mess with the encoder its time to replace or get a backup. I think in the past the QC was vibrating the gasket of the motor letting dust into the encoder the vibration had already possibly damaged the motor hench the gray dust. the solution was to upgrade the motor gaskets.

You can guess once this vibration is removed by removing the QC the encoder never would get dusty.

LG

[tagstudios]

Jason...while there are variing depths,hieghts /bit optimizations,etc.
to most of my carvings I'm generally pretty careful to double check the
details before uploading.Also since the problem consistantly shows up
only during the last 50% of the larger projects I beleive its a
mechanical malfuntion as opposed to user error.....

Al....Thats a good idea but the depth never goes fritzy unless the piece
is a larger one....but I will try it.....(by larger I mean approx. 10" or longer)...

Liquid Guitars...1.) which pdf would show the details for what you're
suggesting? I'm real ABC,1,2,3,Mickey Mouse kinda guy...I've got to have
pictures to show me what to do...
2.) ""I not a fan of removing the back cover of the encoder. Once you
mess with the encoder its time to replace or get a backup.""
I sure wish I'd have known that first........
3.) I LOVE your guitars!!!!!

[mtylerfl]

...

Al....Thats a good idea but the depth never goes fritzy unless the piece
is a larger one....but I will try it.....(by larger I mean approx. 10" or longer)...


Hello,

The depth should NEVER "go fritzy", regardless of your project size, if all is well with your machine. I suggest calling Tech Support so they can walk you through a few real-time checks over the phone to help determine why your machine is not working properly.

[rlane10347]

I had the same problem with the depth climbing or going deep into the wood with long carves. I posted on this befor. What I found was that the encoder disk was loose on the motor shaft.(on both the Z and Y axis) A drop of epoxy on the tip of the shaft to lock the encoders did the job. 178 carving hours later still very flat carve regions. Hope this helps, Ray Lane








Ok...I got the cover screws out and disconnected the head cover
cable harness...left the AC interrupt switch
cable connected and removed the cover....positioned the
Z-truck and took out the three screws from the encoder
cover and watched the 2 MICROSCOPIC nuts fall onto the
belt.....the encoder was spotless. Zero dust insde the cover
and not a spec on the encoder wheel...nothing that we could
see on it at all but we blew it off with some canned air
just to be sure.However,there was no gasket inside the cap....???...
..After unitedcases warning wifey and I both looked for it to fall but it never did....it just
wasn't in there.There was a bit of build up on the head screws so
I cleaned most everything off very thoroughly.
After the cover reassembly (those 2 micro nuts were a PAIN)
the flex shaft wouldn't connect properly.I think I've got
it in now but I'm still not sure if its in there good and
snug because now it pops back out with just the slightest
pressure when before I really had to pull hard to get it loose.
Its 4:30 in the morning and I don't want to start it up becuase
of the noise.I'll have to wait till the morning to check the
flex shaft under power.
Ok...back to the original problem. The trays are level.There are
no BB marks on the bit collar. The encoder looks fine as far as
I could tell.Its clean and tight with no dust inside the cover. Maybe just taking everything apart tonight did the trick...but I don't see how. My eyes are crossed and blood is squirting out of my ears. So....what can I do now???


Hello,

The depth should NEVER "go fritzy", regardless of your project size, if all is well with your machine. I suggest calling Tech Support so they can walk you through a few real-time checks over the phone to help determine why your machine is not working properly.

[tagstudios]

Thanks to you guys for your great help...after the clean up the other night the machine carved a sample piece AND the mantel face perfectly!!!!!..the guy i was making the mantel for loved it............All is well in tag land....................

[dbtuna1]

Thanks for the tip. I found that the Ztruck had a lot of play in it. After re-ajusting the rollers I had no problems. I already removed the dust cap to blow and wipe it clean and still had the problem.
Thanks again for that great tip.






One more thing to think about is if your z truck is running on bad bearings.

Remove the dust caps on the bearing and with a black pen make a mark on the bearings, move the truck up and down. Do all the bearing move freely? if not you could have a frozen bearing or just need to adjust the glide tracking. AL has a good method of realigning the cam ajustment

Sometimes you can clean the frozen bearing using wd40 and a drop of 3n1.

I not a fan of removing the back cover of the encoder. Once you mess with the encoder its time to replace or get a backup. I think in the past the QC was vibrating the gasket of the motor letting dust into the encoder the vibration had already possibly damaged the motor hench the gray dust. the solution was to upgrade the motor gaskets.

You can guess once this vibration is removed by removing the QC the encoder never would get dusty.

LG