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Jeton
07-31-2009, 09:42 AM
Hello, I'm curious if I upgraded to the rock chuck, what bit would you use in place of the 1/8th cutting bit and the 1/16th carving bit?

sorry if this has been asked, I've only a lil bit of time before i have to get to work =/

I just recently broke a 1/8th cutting bit and i'd rather just upgrade to the rock chuck before spending 50 bucks on a new bit from sears, but i'm not sure which bits i can use with the new chuck

Thanks for your time

DocWheeler
07-31-2009, 09:53 AM
Jeton,

The bits would be the same, just not with an adapter.
You would need to consider the shank diameter before ordering the Rock and decide if you will need to use a 1/2" shank bit - if so, you would need the 1/2" Rock and adapters down to smaller bits.

That is my understanding anyway.

Kenm810
07-31-2009, 09:59 AM
I bought both the 1/4" and 1/2" Rock Chucks plus all the different sized sleeves,
the 1/4" will take care of any 1/4" CW or standard 1/4" bit, and the 1/2" will do the same for any 1/2" CW or standard 1/2" bit.
With the addition of the sleeves you can use 1/8" and 1/4' bits in the 1/2" Chuck it's a Win/Win Scenario.
you can get some bits, tools accessories for the Chucks from Ron at the same time. :wink:

www.cw-parts.com (http://www.cw-parts.com)

Ya beat me Ken, I must have been daydreaming again :razz:

mtylerfl
07-31-2009, 10:15 AM
Question - if you have a project that uses both 1/4" and 1/2" shanks bit, does that make extra "work" to swap those bits during a project run?

SteveEJ
07-31-2009, 10:27 AM
Nahh.. Just swap out the sleeves that just press in with the bit. The sleeves hold the bit and when the chuck is tightened it snuggs the bits in the sleeves down as well.

Kenm810
07-31-2009, 10:46 AM
I was thinking

I bought both Chucks Plus an extra 1/2" Chuck base and all the Sleeves
so maybe, I'll be able to leave my carving or cutting bit in the 1/4" chuck base and a 1/2" bit in the 1/2",
that way I could swap the bases without removing or resetting the bits.

Pratyeka
07-31-2009, 01:42 PM
I was thinking

I bought both Chucks Plus an extra 1/2" Chuck base and all the Sleeves
so maybe, I'll be able to leave my carving or cutting bit in the 1/4" chuck base and a 1/2" bit in the 1/2",
that way I could swap the bases without removing or resetting the bits.

Wouldn't that involve using 2 wrenches instead of just the "T" hex?

Kenm810
07-31-2009, 03:07 PM
Yep it would, but like I've mentioned before I love to tinker.
I won't be able to try it until I start Carving again,
right now it's just one of many ideas rattling around between my ears. :wink:

Digitalwoodshop
07-31-2009, 08:26 PM
And I thought that noise was a Rattle Snake......

Nothing to worry about....

AL

robbrigg2
07-31-2009, 09:12 PM
Hey all.... just wanted to let you know (if you already don't) when you get the rock you are blessed with a new ability to use various bits, which broaden your capabilities and save you money.

I have been trying various cut off bits and have found that I can use the Zip Bits in the Rock just fine. They are cheap (compared to the $25 jobs) and if they cut smoother than any I've used so far. Give em a try, they are worth it.

dbfletcher
07-31-2009, 09:22 PM
I was really wondering that myself. I've had a rotozip since 2000. Are you just using the standard bits or have you tried the heavy duty zip bits. They have always called the zip bits "plungeable"

robbrigg2
07-31-2009, 11:57 PM
I used both, though the heavy duty ones are quiter and cut cleaner. Either way it saves a ton of money in the long run. I don't mind the little extra sanding. I guess for pierced carvings the other could be better, but for regular pattern cut out its great

Jeton
08-01-2009, 09:17 AM
Rob, am i reading this right....your saying with the rock chuck you ARE able to use the roto zip bits as a replacement for the 1/8th cutting bit?

i thought the rotozip bits needed to be inserted into the project at an angle rather then plunge, but i've never used one...just something i thought i had read online about em.

i've made afew things on my cw so far. i'll see if i can get some pics posted later today, so far i love it.

only issue i've had outta the half dozen projects so far is the broken 1/8 cutting bit when i was trying to do the tic tac toe pattern someone had posted on these forums. I'm not really having any issues with my stock chuck, but i've read so many good things about the rock and i'd like to be able to use the whole set of router bits i have sitting on my shelf in the case lol

robbrigg2
08-01-2009, 01:44 PM
Yes, it is true. You can use the roto bits. The kind I have are plungeable and at $8 somehing for four of them you can see that they save you pleny (on those bits alone). Still cheaper ones out there that I used that worked but they left more sanding. When I first got my machine I broke about 4 of the regular blades in the first month (mostly my fault) but never the less a very price lesson. I broke one with the rock 2 days afte getting it. Again my fault. But that's when decided I would look or alternatives. Now, I haven't broken a bit in almost continuous use (every day from about 10 a.m. to 9 p.m.) and no broken bits. The biggest trick is learning the insertion point on the bits for the machine to recognize it. Once you've done that you've won the war.

Jeff_Birt
08-01-2009, 06:02 PM
Did you ever wonder why roto-zip bits are cheaper than a good solid carbide bit? It is because they are made cheaper. They are made to be disposable when you wreck then on drywall and whatnot. They will not give you anywhere near the cut quality a good bit will. They could also lead to increased vibration in the machine and tear up the cutting head.

Pratyeka
08-01-2009, 06:16 PM
They could also lead to increased vibration in the machine and tear up the cutting head.

That is true if you use them in a QC chuck.

robbrigg2
08-01-2009, 06:19 PM
Did you ever wonder why roto-zip bits are cheaper than a good solid carbide bit? It is because they are made cheaper.

True, but did you ever consider that it makes no sense throwing good money after bad, buying a 23 dollar bit just to have it break the same day? I did. While some issues remain with the design others might not, there really is no saying. All I know is that with the possibility so high that the bit will break during cut out (which is when most bits break) it makes no sense to me waisting hard earned cash when a little elbow grease can do the job. (THis is speaking of edges). I can see keeping a good bit around for the pierced carvings (if that's a persons gig) but for me sandpaper does the job fast and efficiently. And, I would say the roto bits were not much worse than the carbides coming from LHR. GO figure! All I can say is try it... what do you have to loose? And if it works (which is does) who wouldn't want to save money?

robbrigg2
08-01-2009, 06:30 PM
Lest you think that all of the breaks were solely my lack of Carvewright Expertiese I would point out that I am still using the exact same pattern. There are glitches with the machine as we can all atest too. This is without a doubt the first item I have paid this much for that I was willing to deal with all of the "issues" that came up with it. Grease this, tighten that, loosen here, replace there... and I have only owned this machine for about 3 months now. I deal with it because, well, as the artist Matice once said "the pain ceases but the pleasure remains".

I'm passing on, for likeminded people, alternatives to paying a fortune ESPECIALLY during the time of their learning curve.

rjustice
08-02-2009, 09:58 PM
Hi guys,
sorry to post on this so late in the thread, I have been out of town this weekend.
A couple notes to consider:
Yes the Rock chuck can hold 1/8 bits, by using the "Rock Sleeves" found on my website, under "Rock Chuck Items" tab.
I do sell the 1/8", Solid caribide, center cutting, Cut out bits. They are found under the "Cutting Bits" tab, and are $14 less than what the stock bit sells for. I am constantly ordering larger quantities of tools, and will soon be into another discount level, and will be lowering the prices even more, and will pass the majority of the saving along to the fellow carvers.
As a side note, I also tested the RotoZip bits because i was considering selling them. It sounds like they were different ones that what is being described. Our hardwares (ACE, TrueValue, and Lowes) only carry bits that are NON Centercutting... It is absolutely possible to damage the machine by using tools that are not center cutting.
I think that the reason there is success being described earlier, using the "high speed steel" Rotozip cutting bits is because they are not as brittle as carbide, and allow the tool to bend, flex, or push away as it is cutting, due to the cutting forces. As the tool bends it is setting up a condition for out of balance. If it pushes far enough, it will whip out, and would reck a lot of things on the machine... (it would be quite ugly)... The duller the bit gets, the closer you get to this happening, and "HSS" cutting bits like the Rotozip tools, will not hold their sharp edge nearly as long as carbide. The cool thing about carbide with high RPM spindles, is that when a small tool like this gets dull, it just breaks. i have seen (in steel working conditions) long HSS tools whip out. It is not somthing you would want to see in our CW machines.

My recommendation, whether you purchase my tools, CW's, or anyone elses, are to stick with carbide tools only, and be absolutely sure they are center cutting tools.

Happy Carving,

Ron

Digitalwoodshop
08-02-2009, 10:43 PM
Hi guys,
sorry to post on this so late in the thread, I have been out of town this weekend.
A couple notes to consider:
Yes the Rock chuck can hold 1/8 bits, by using the "Rock Sleeves" found on my website, under "Rock Chuck Items" tab.
I do sell the 1/8", Solid caribide, center cutting, Cut out bits. They are found under the "Cutting Bits" tab, and are $14 less than what the stock bit sells for. I am constantly ordering larger quantities of tools, and will soon be into another discount level, and will be lowering the prices even more, and will pass the majority of the saving along to the fellow carvers.
As a side note, I also tested the RotoZip bits because i was considering selling them. It sounds like they were different ones that what is being described. Our hardwares (ACE, TrueValue, and Lowes) only carry bits that are NON Centercutting... It is absolutely possible to damage the machine by using tools that are not center cutting.
I think that the reason there is success being described earlier, using the "high speed steel" Rotozip cutting bits is because they are not as brittle as carbide, and allow the tool to bend, flex, or push away as it is cutting, due to the cutting forces. As the tool bends it is setting up a condition for out of balance. If it pushes far enough, it will whip out, and would reck a lot of things on the machine... (it would be quite ugly)... The duller the bit gets, the closer you get to this happening, and "HSS" cutting bits like the Rotozip tools, will not hold their sharp edge nearly as long as carbide. The cool thing about carbide with high RPM spindles, is that when a small tool like this gets dull, it just breaks. i have seen (in steel working conditions) long HSS tools whip out. It is not somthing you would want to see in our CW machines.

My recommendation, whether you purchase my tools, CW's, or anyone elses, are to stick with carbide tools only, and be absolutely sure they are center cutting tools.

Happy Carving,

Ron

I agree 100%

AL

badger
08-03-2009, 07:31 AM
This is aimed at the newer users. Please dont go by someone that in their own statement when they state they have broken bits left and right and then say (mostly my fault) is the best advice when they try to steer you to cheaper bits.

I think I would take the advice of someone that has over 3000 post and knows alittle more of what they are talking about including RJ designer of the Rock.

If I see either of them stating you might do this to the machine you best take their advice.

Digitalwoodshop
08-03-2009, 09:46 AM
Once that bit bends and it WILL it will be off set and you can expect one or more of the following to happen....

You will break your flex shaft.

You will break the Z Truck.

You will break the Y Truck.

You will break the motor or jam and lock it up under power until it catches on FIRE.

You will damage the Y or Z Motor.

YOU WILL GET HURT with flying metal.

Just say NO to Roto Zip... Like NO to Recap Tires.... Yes they work but..... they can KILL you or damage your property.

With over 1000 hours of carving time, I have broken one 1/8 inch bit.... It was after cleaning, I left the head down and slid a board in and heard POP.... Broke the bit....

In my opinion broken bits are caused by sawdust buildup, worn sand paper belts, board loosing contact with the brass roller, or a bad QC with the bit fluttering to the point on a cut path it breaks the tabs and jams the bit.



AL

robbrigg2
08-03-2009, 10:13 AM
Ok, let me ask you something. The bits being offered at 25 also have a 10 or 15 shipping charge which means you have to by a couple of hundred dollars worth of them to make the shipping not sting so much. On the other hand you have cheaper, effective bits that you can buy, use, and dispose of on a weekly basis if you wanted and still come out only paying $8 because not only are the bits cheaper but you can run down to the local tool store to pick them up. Seems to me that is more reasonable.

I've spent about $200 in bits from the expensive places and STILL had those problems. So I guess it can happen either way. If you don't examine your flex shaft before you ever run your machine for the first time you can burn it up because of 1) the lack of lube 2) the over abundance of lube. Guys I have now spent about 2 weeks of almost continual running of my machine making part after part for a large order and no difficulties. Granted I am using pine but, while i love the ROck, I boght one of the bits from Ron's site and it broke the second day. That is just TOOO much money for me and I believe there are others that think like that. Now go figure, I use the expensive bits to get the great quality, and they break as soon as they are used. I use the cheaper bits, and get good quality, and they kee on working.... now, that doesn't seem to make the choice hard for me... how about you?

robbrigg2
08-03-2009, 10:18 AM
And Al, if borken bits are from the things you mentioned how do you account for multiple broke bits within the first few days of use? No sawdust to build up, no belts worn out yet?

If you blame all on operator error your pre-supposing all operators do the wron thing. Did you have such a time when you first got your machine? If no, they why must we assume that everyone else is less cabable of obtaining the same results?

And one more thing to think about, we are told repeatedly on the various threads that the CW was intended for hobbyists, yet the bits are priced more for a professional if you ask me

HighTechOkie
08-03-2009, 11:58 AM
If you are breaking bits it is an indication of a problem somewhere. Rob, you have even commented that using the rotozip bits gives a rough cut. Since the bit is HSS (high speed steel), it is softer and can flex more before breaking. This still indicates a wobble in the bit, just the cheap bit doesn't break.

Why not spend the time to diagnosis and fix the issue so that you can use a proper carbide tool (bit) made for CNC operations that will last considerably longer and ultimately provide a better quality of cut. In the long run you do save money on bits and cut down or eliminate your edge sanding operation.

If you are using the machine to make money, then you really need to look at the TCO (total cost of ownership) and that includes machine maintenance, repair and consumables. Yes the rotozip bits are cheap on a per item basis, but does it make sense to spend $8/wk ($400+/yr) PLUS the eventual broken parts(Y or Z truck, flex shaft, etc) simply because you didn't want to take the time to find the problem? Doesn't sound like a good business approach to me.

Just like any machine with moving parts (and more so with precision equipment) you have to make sure everything is running top notch to get the best performance. Yes, it should have came out of the box in that condition, but reality is, you bought the cheapest CNC on the market. You have to do a little adjustment/tune-up to make sure it will hold up in a production environment. There is a wealth of CNC knowledge and experience on the forum. Some of the guys on here have worked with $250,000+ CNCs for decades. They know what is required to maintain a CNC so it will hold up and perform day in and day out.

Please take the time to find your alignment issues so you stop throwing money away on junk hss bits. They are going to cost you more in the long run.

Rob

Dan-Woodman
08-03-2009, 12:20 PM
I'm a firm believer in useing the right tool for the purpose. A couple ways to cut down on bit breakage is , if your only cutting 1/2 thick material, use a 1/8" bit that cuts 1/2 in. long.
But what I do ,as I can't affort $40.00 bits,I just outline the pattern I want to cut about .020-.030 deep annd then use a scrollsaw.Even the best scrollsaw blades are under $1.00 and cut smooth as silk (no sanding).
later Daniel

robbrigg2
08-03-2009, 12:24 PM
I'm a firm believer in useing the right tool for the purpose. A couple ways to cut down on bit breakage is , if your only cutting 1/2 thick material, use a 1/8" bit that cuts 1/2 in. long.
But what I do ,as I can't affort $40.00 bits,I just outline the pattern I want to cut about .020-.030 deep annd then use a scrollsaw.Even the best scrollsaw blades are under $1.00 and cut smooth as silk (no sanding).
later Daniel

Now that I can agree with.... actually I had thought about doing this but had not as of yet. I even think it would be more effective for certain applications to make one pattern.. do all the carvng on the machine... delete the template design and cut out with the pattern..don't know if this makes sense... it would speed things up. I do recognize that cut out can be where the problems happen.

robbrigg2
08-03-2009, 12:40 PM
I do understand the point about the bits, but as I've mentioned the pattern is the SAME now as it was then... so why did the bits break. Do you mean that the extra flex is allowing me to do a cut that the machine would normally not be able to do? And if so, how am I supposed to be able to know that? Yep when the bit breaks.. but then that is 25 + shipping, I make a change, but still I'm uncertain if it will work this time... put a new 25 bit in... ooops there it goes.... do yo get my point..... If these bits are not "ideal" somone needs to make an "Less than Ieal" but affordable training bit.

In the two months I've had the machine

1 broken and replaced machine (LHR fauly inspection out the door)
1 broken flex shaft (LHR not putting enough lube and my not checking it)
8 - 10 broken cutout
1 broken QC
1 Broken Carving Bit

Now, I will accept some fault but not all. And, well, this thing hurts, but it hurts good... but I am trying to find a way to keep it operational, get through my learning curve, and recoup my losses. Try explaining to a reluctant wife why, jus 24 hours after buying something, you have to buy it again... get the drift.

It works, I think the scroll saw idea is great, carbides are fine for the intricate, and necessary things, but somone please remember that the targt market for this piece of equipment is NOT men that have had years of CNC experience. But basic hobbiests, and small businesss men like myself that can't take weeks, months, or even years of losses hile we try to learn (all at the same time we can't get tech support).

And if someone says "Use the search feaure"I would add that that is a mes as well. If I get say and error 300 I should be able to go to the search and put in "error 300" to find the thread but can you ? No because the search feature requires 4 letters or numbers so you. The process is combursome all the way around.

These bits are plungeable, ment for wood, and fit in the chuck. The CW is not ment to use any other bits then the carving, cut out, and 13 other routing bits that come in their case... but do you use any others? If so, the CW was not designed for it, neither was the CW designed for the Rock, but hey it works right. THat my point in a nut shell.... sorry guys I just gotta call it as I see it..

SteveEJ
08-03-2009, 01:06 PM
OK.. I agree with the experts BUT there has to be a solution for the constant breaking of bits! How about if LHR adds a feed rate reduction setting in the software/firmware! That would make this problem go away (for the most part!).

PCW
08-03-2009, 01:17 PM
robbrigg2,

Sorry to hear about all your problems.

As for the search function if you add quotation marks in the search line "example" that will allow you to use under 4 characters.

Good Luck

HighTechOkie
08-03-2009, 01:46 PM
I do understand the point about the bits, but as I've mentioned the pattern is the SAME now as it was then... so why did the bits break. Do you mean that the extra flex is allowing me to do a cut that the machine would normally not be able to do? And if so, how am I supposed to be able to know that? Yep when the bit breaks.. but then that is 25 + shipping, I make a change, but still I'm uncertain if it will work this time... put a new 25 bit in... ooops there it goes.... do yo get my point..... If these bits are not "ideal" somone needs to make an "Less than Ieal" but affordable training bit.

In the two months I've had the machine

1 broken and replaced machine (LHR fauly inspection out the door)
1 broken flex shaft (LHR not putting enough lube and my not checking it)
8 - 10 broken cutout
1 broken QC
1 Broken Carving Bit

Now, I will accept some fault but not all. And, well, this thing hurts, but it hurts good... but I am trying to find a way to keep it operational, get through my learning curve, and recoup my losses. Try explaining to a reluctant wife why, jus 24 hours after buying something, you have to buy it again... get the drift.

It works, I think the scroll saw idea is great, carbides are fine for the intricate, and necessary things, but somone please remember that the targt market for this piece of equipment is NOT men that have had years of CNC experience. But basic hobbiests, and small businesss men like myself that can't take weeks, months, or even years of losses hile we try to learn (all at the same time we can't get tech support).

And if someone says "Use the search feaure"I would add that that is a mes as well. If I get say and error 300 I should be able to go to the search and put in "error 300" to find the thread but can you ? No because the search feature requires 4 letters or numbers so you. The process is combursome all the way around.

These bits are plungeable, ment for wood, and fit in the chuck. The CW is not ment to use any other bits then the carving, cut out, and 13 other routing bits that come in their case... but do you use any others? If so, the CW was not designed for it, neither was the CW designed for the Rock, but hey it works right. THat my point in a nut shell.... sorry guys I just gotta call it as I see it..

I completely understand where you are coming from and agree that for a new machine that should be unacceptable from LHR's standpoint. Most if not all of those issues could easily be addressed prior to the machine leaving the factory through some simple inspection and packaging improvements. None of which changes your situation as of now, so we can only move forward and offer help and advice. I also feel there should be better training/documentation on machine care and maintenance. It has improved greatly over the past few months, but still believe there is considerable improvmnet to be made. I see several people having to learn from trial and error, repeating the same things others before them have already been through.

A dial indicator is what is used to measure the runout or wobble of a bit. Prices start at about $20 for a cheapo indicator and magnetic base from Harbor Freight. For our purposes, this works okay. The other thing is to try to wiggle the Y and Z trucks. Any movement other than in the direction of travel will cause problems.

Regarding the search function. if you put your search term in quotes like you typed it, you will get better results :). Again, a documentation issue (with the forum software in this case).

Another good suggestion on doing cutouts is to have the machine do a 1/4" pass. Then using a band saw or jig saw rough cut the outline and clean up with a router and flush trim bit w/ bearing. This way you could use shorter/cheaper carbide 1/8" bit such as this from Lowes (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=12330-353-85213MC&lpage=none).

Rob

HighTechOkie
08-03-2009, 02:05 PM
OK.. I agree with the experts BUT there has to be a solution for the constant breaking of bits! How about if LHR adds a feed rate reduction setting in the software/firmware! That would make this problem go away (for the most part!).

That is why they implemented the "Maximum Pass Depth" for cutouts. If you are still having problems, you have issues somewhere with your machine. There are plenty of things in life we have no control over. Since manual feed/speed rate has been requested for a couple years now and nothing delivered, I chose to take the path which I do have control over, and that is to make sure my machine is setup and running properly.

There are too many people who are able to successfully do cutouts for it to be a speed/feed rate problem. No need to spam the forum with your "speed reduction" request. Learn to maintain your machine and your results and life will be much better off.

Rob

PCW
08-03-2009, 03:41 PM
Rob

I would have to disagree with you on not having a choice. I try to control most things in my life and not let people make my choices if it can be avoided.

This one is fairly simple to control. If someone is not happy with the CW machine or the software they have a option to put it up for sale and purchase a CNC machine if they find it to be a necessity. :D

I broke one bit so far and I have not broke another since. I simple use a outline with either a band-saw or scroll saw for these purposes as outlined by Dan-Woodman earlier.

I personally would not use a rotozip blade but there again that is my choice.:mrgreen:

SteveEJ
08-03-2009, 04:58 PM
That is why they implemented the "Maximum Pass Depth" for cutouts. If you are still having problems, you have issues somewhere with your machine. There are plenty of things in life we have no control over. Since manual feed/speed rate has been requested for a couple years now and nothing delivered, I chose to take the path which I do have control over, and that is to make sure my machine is setup and running properly.

There are too many people who are able to successfully do cutouts for it to be a speed/feed rate problem. No need to spam the forum with your "speed reduction" request. Learn to maintain your machine and your results and life will be much better off.

Rob

You SIR have NO idea how I clean my machine! Did you know that I have a dust blower and dust colection system? Did you know that even though I have what I already stated I stop the project and vacuum it out every 30 minutes (even though there is a minimum amount of dust) to vacuum it out?. Did you know that after each carve I clean out, wipe down every part of the machine? I didn't address you so what gave you the right to address me in that manner? I fully expect this to be deleted so I am keeping a copy just in case! Check your arrogance at the door or don't bother to show up to the party!

Good Day!

rjustice
08-03-2009, 04:58 PM
Let me start by saying, I am not one to blame everything that goes wrong when trying to implement your use of this machine on "user error" or "lack of maintenence". (I do think that I was the one to coin the phrase "a clean machine is a happy machine", however, because i believe it, and train it) You have to of course keep that practical and in perspective too...
I am one of the guys that has ran CNC machines and trained others to run those machines that range from $100K to $750K for over 29 years now. My point in posting the info that i did was not to stir anything up, but to caution people, from my experience. This is how I train people at my company. I try to instill in them the experience that i have, through teaching them my personal experiences using words. Guess what... some people learn very well that way, and some do not. Some have to feel that severe cut across their hand, before they "hear" with their brain, not to pick up a cutter by the flutes with the tool holder mounted, because if it slips you can get cut!... Personally, I have developed enough common sense, whether taught or bread into me, to know to think about what the consequences could be for the actions i perform. When i was a young teenager wrenching on hot rod engines under the hood of a car, i will never forget Dad saying to me "what is going to happen to your knuckles when that wrench slips off?"... I instantly envisioned a picture of the bloody knuckles that i got the week before. Now, I spend that split second thinking about what could happen, because i know there is a high likelyhood that the darn wrench will probably slip off. I make sure that i push or pull the wrench away from what would hurt me if and when it does slip.
All I am saying to the group is that I have seen HSS tools whip out. The cheaper they are, the softer they are, and the more likely to bend than break. I am trying to save people the headache of replacing half of the insides of thier machines if this happens to them. In my experience, the risk is probably much higher than you think, and is not worth the reward.
I hope that everyone understands that i am not being critical of anyone experimenting, and trying new things, only letting you know what i have seen. I am not a person that makes crap up because it sounds good. You will know that if i take the time to write about something like this it is for a good reason. I want everyone to have the best experience with their machines as possible.
I truly believe that what makes this forum so great is that we not only ban together to figure out problems after they happen, but also share our failures and experience to help prevent someone else from having to experience it. Personally i think we have made enormouse strides, and are gaining on it every day from the mechanical side. I hope that we contiunue to see improvement efforts on the software/firmware side. We need to have the same constructive information flowing to those that are working on this area.
I would be willing to bet that most of you can remember seeing the commercial and thinking about the potential of what this machine could do for you personally, and how there wasnt anything on the market that could get you to the point of doing this type of work at near this price point. I feel stronger today about potential, than i did a year ago. It is up to the users group (aka Forum) to keep plugging away at voicing concerns, and giving advice. Helping not only each other, but LHR as well. We will only get a better experience with our personal machines for it in the long run!

That is all i was trying to do....

Sorry for the long post....

Happy Carving!

Ron

robbrigg2
08-03-2009, 05:18 PM
Rob

I would have to disagree with you on not having a choice. I try to control most things in my life and not let people make my choices if it can be avoided.

This one is fairly simple to control. If someone is not happy with the CW machine or the software they have a option to put it up for sale and purchase a CNC machine if they find it to be a necessity. :D

I broke one bit so far and I have not broke another since. I simple use a outline with either a band-saw or scroll saw for these purposes as outlined by Dan-Woodman earlier.

I personally would not use a rotozip blade but there again that is my choice.:mrgreen:

Exactly, choice is the correct term. But let me point out that if you choose to use your band saw, scroll saw, or any other saw instead of your machine it is a choice. I Personally bought this machine BECAUSE it said id did it all... and it does not.

With bits wiping out I assum you are speaking of breakage? If so, that happened with the good blades as well as the bad. Ron it seems to me that you stated you tried the ZIp bits as well EVEN WITH Your years of exprience. Why? Shouldn't you have already known it was futile since the bit was not carbide? But you tried, and I assume you decided it wasn't for you. All I did was tell people that they had a CHOICE to try the bit. 10 cabinets in 2 weeks and not on of them broke. Your bit broke after 1 day ON THE SAME PATTERN. So lets let them at least know that, and make an informed decisson about what to use.

The people sitting out there passing their judgement on the "Stupididy" of the newb have no idea what level of design we are talking about. Somehow they think that perhaps they are doing far more difficult things with their machines than am I and with better results.... bah... they have no idea! I've tried both bits.... the zip works period.... until you've given it a shot your speaking out of inexperience no matter how much time you've had on a huge machine... this is not a huge machine..... so I guess I chose to cut my hand.. but then again I don't make any money on bits.... I just think there is a vested interst in selling the high end bits.

robbrigg2
08-03-2009, 05:25 PM
Please all, understand, I am not mad, but neither am I stupid and I don't like the implications some seem to be making. THere was probably alot of scepticism when the ROck first came out but it works and it's improved and cheapend our experience. THat's all I was trying to do for others was offer an improvement and cheapen the cost of their experience while maintaining their results.

PCW
08-03-2009, 05:37 PM
robbrigg2,

My last comment was to Rob (HighTechOkie). I feel for you and hate it when someone gets accused of user error instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt.:D

SteveEJ
08-03-2009, 05:45 PM
Or not maintaining the cleanliness of their machine.. Pet pieve of mine! Almost anal about it. Being in the Aviation industry will instill proper maintenance in you else you will not last too long. I am still alive!

I was cutting out a 3/4" hole with the drill function when the bit broke. The drill cut movement speed was much faster than the cutout function. Yes there is a max depth cut per pass selection there as well but that only eliminates part of the side force on the bits. To allow a cut speed option would allow the best of all worlds and between the two of them would most likely eliminate breaking good cut bits. It would alloe the designer to account for different types of wood. The only potential drawback would be possible burning of wood if it goes too slow. A minimum speed could be set to eliminate or reduce this.

While we are thinking about it, how about the software remembering the settings or having these settings set and saved in the preferences. They would be good candidates for this.

PCW
08-03-2009, 05:57 PM
Steve,

You are right a person can make a huge mistake by making assumptions.

dbfletcher
08-03-2009, 05:58 PM
I sincerely hope I dont get flamed for this, but I would at least like to vioce my experience. I do not want to deminish Ron expertises in any way, becuase with out a doubt I can say her know far from about machining, cnc, hss, carbide bits then I will probably every know. However, that being said, I would just like to state what my experieicne with rotozip bit are in the rotozip tool. My particular rotozip max's out at 30K rpm... in the ball bark of the carvewright i beleive. In the 9 years i have oweded my rotozip, I have snapped 20-25 bits. Typically becuase i tried to move the rotozip to quickly through the material. I will say i have seen the zip bit flex somewhat... but very minimal before 'snap' the bit broke. My take from Rons reponse was the he expected the zip bits to flex far more than my usage would indicate.... but like i said, I fully beleive Ron know's very well how hss is supposed to react. perhaps I have just been very lucky and have never seen this "whipout" that Ron describes with the rototzip tool. If i use to much force, I know the bit will snap. And after having my carvewrite for several years now, I do have a feel for how fast it moves on the x,y,z axis... and anytime i have broken a rotozip bit, I am positive I was moving it thru the material at a much faster rate than I have ever seen my carvwright move.

I have not tried a zip bit in the carvewright yet. Will I? I'm guessing once i get the rock i ordered.. i probably will give it a whirl withe there heavy duty bits... and i certinaly will keep a very close eye on the bit thru the saftey sheild and see if I can see a lot of deflection.

I believe that most if not all the bit the i have broke on my carvewright machine had nothing to do with me at all. Most of them where very early on from head dives.... call support.. replace z-truck... control boards... powersupply... ect... and every so often out of the blue on a project the carved fine before... i'll hear a screech.. go out and look and the z will be all the way down drilled though one part of the machine or another that it wasnt supposed to... and another $50 out the window.

So... I'm fine with LHR saying the no -non LHR bits are not supported and could very well damage your machine. And i guess when the reports start rolling in the zip bits are indeed totally incompatible.. i will scratch them off the list as a possible useful add on tool. Obviously so far Robb has had some success... and with my 10 years as a user of a rotozip.. i'll almost surly give them a whirl.

Let just keep the info comming.. both good and bad. In the end it can only help all of us.

Thanks,

Doug Flethcher

badger
08-03-2009, 06:30 PM
My comment I should have posted is geared towards the newer users that dont have some of the expertise some of you have. I just didnt want them to go out and purchase cheap bits just because they are cheap without knowing what they are doing.

For the rest of you that have years and years of cnc experience by all means test what you want to test. You are adults and think you know what is best for your machine so by all means use what you want.

For the not so experienced please do your research before you use other than what is intended for the machine.

HighTechOkie
08-03-2009, 07:06 PM
You SIR have NO idea how I clean my machine! Did you know that I have a dust blower and dust colection system? Did you know that even though I have what I already stated I stop the project and vacuum it out every 30 minutes (even though there is a minimum amount of dust) to vacuum it out?. Did you know that after each carve I clean out, wipe down every part of the machine? I didn't address you so what gave you the right to address me in that manner? I fully expect this to be deleted so I am keeping a copy just in case! Check your arrogance at the door or don't bother to show up to the party!

Good Day!

Take it easy Steve, life is too short to take everything so personal. I have seen your comments numerous times regarding your cleaning habits and was not questioning the machines cleanliness. It seems if someone doesn't address you with kid gloves you get all bent out of shape like it was some kind of personal attack.

There is more to "maintain(ing) your machine"(my exact words) than just keeping it clean and dust free. Dust can (and does) get into the encoders. Screws become loose. Grease dries out. Castings can fracture. These are all issues that should be part of routine maintenance. When was the last time you checked TIR?

Then we have the list of "user error" issues such as board binding on the squaring plate because the wood isn't square or loosing contact with the board tracking sensor.

If the machine can't run wide open on select pine, then you have an issue somewhere in your machine. Strip it down and put it back together to find the issue(s) or send it to LHR for them to go through it.

Rob

SteveEJ
08-03-2009, 07:29 PM
OK Rob.. I'll bury the hatchett and accept your explaination. I do still firmly believe there needs to be that added feed rate feature. Stating so does not make it SPAM either. The SPAM statement was quite unnecessary. I do not have to be treated tenderly and have quite thick skin but even that is sometimes not enough to insulate me and others from some of the statements by folks here.

You did make a statement, that LHR has basically known of this request for a long time. Why have they not responded? I would rather have the basics nailed down in the software then all of the advanced features in the world.

Steve

Lobo
08-04-2009, 09:14 AM
Rob,

Does the scanning probe fit in your chucks?

cnsranch
08-04-2009, 09:16 AM
I do still firmly believe there needs to be that added feed rate feature. LHR has basically known of this request for a long time. Why have they not responded?

Steve

I think a lot of people agree with you, Steve, regarding having some kind of feed rate (I'm one of them).

My thought was for the programmers give us the ability to tell the machine what type of wood we're carving, and then thru programming, the machine would adjust the feed rate (it's seems clear to me that, say, pine will carve softer and faster than, say, ironwood).

My guess is that this is a more complicated issue than we think - after all, if we're given the ability to adjust the feed rate, and we adjust it too fast, and we break a bit, whose fault is that? Or, if LHR gives us the ability to adjust the rate, and we adjust it too fast, way too fast for the tolerances of the bit, and the bit blows thru the cover, and drives itself into my forehead (and rattles around there for a while, 'cause there's nothing there to stop it), whose fault is that?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - LHR HAS to be evaluating every suggestion we make here - they have a vested interest in making the machine and its software better - that way they'll sell more machines, AND MAKE MORE MONEY (novel concept for any company these days)!!!

Someone venture a realistic guess - how many cutting bits do you think they sell in a month? 100? 250? Do the math - you don't drive your auto company by selling oil changes, you do it by selling cars. And LHR isn't making a fortune by selling cutting bits.

So something else has to be at work in an instance like this.

But that's just me.

PCW
08-04-2009, 09:48 AM
Hi Jerry,

The feed rate issue I don't see it being any different than other hobby CNC on the market with the exception of the CW being proprietary in hardware and software. They offer full control of feed rate and passes so I don't think the problem would be the fault of LHR. It should be just the opposite if they are programing these figures and a bit breaks goes thru the cover, and drives itself into your forehead (and rattles around there for a while).:D

I think LHR is more interested in things that are bringing in the dollars. They are not overly concerned about things that don't and they end up on the back burner.

Someone venture a realistic guess - how many cutting bits do you think they sell in a month? 100? 250?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot higher.

Ike
08-05-2009, 12:59 PM
Rob,

Does the scanning probe fit in your chucks?


This is a good question, does anybody know? I just bought the Rock and I have a probe that I never tried. Dang I was on the phone with Ron yesterday I wish I read this before to ask! I bet it will work!

Ike

al2888dj
08-05-2009, 01:05 PM
it will fit

PCW
08-05-2009, 01:12 PM
Hey Ike,

How are you doing and hope you are selling a lot of Soda. Below is a quote from Ron over at CarveSpot.



Quote
catawba
Thanks Ron, because there is a problem. I put a ruler to the shaft and can say it looks like the manufacturing specs must have been 0.5 inches. Somehow I just cannot see tightening on that plastic. It seems like a quarter inch to half inch adapte from anyone would have to be better than pinching plastic. I put a mic on the diameter and it is .250 inches. I don't have a quarter-inch Rock Chuck or quarter-inch adapter yet, so I don't have any path on going that way. I can put something up on YouTube to show the end of it if you want. If it is important, I would send it to you for your inspection.

Hi Catawba,
If the stem is .250 diameter, and is sticking out .35 or more, you will be able to clamp on the stem ok in either version of the Rock Chuck.... Keep in mind there is no true force trying to pull the probe from the spindle, so just a slight tighening of the clamp screw in the Rock Chuck till it doesnt want to pull out is all you need... and yes, if you have the 1/2 version of the chuck, and didnt purchase a Rock Sleeve, you would need the 1/2 to 1/4 sleeve.

Thanks for the feedback!

Ron

hess
08-06-2009, 03:16 AM
Hey Ike,

How are you doing and hope you are selling a lot of Soda. Below is a quote from Ron over at CarveSpot.



Quote
catawba
Thanks Ron, because there is a problem. I put a ruler to the shaft and can say it looks like the manufacturing specs must have been 0.5 inches. Somehow I just cannot see tightening on that plastic. It seems like a quarter inch to half inch adapte from anyone would have to be better than pinching plastic. I put a mic on the diameter and it is .250 inches. I don't have a quarter-inch Rock Chuck or quarter-inch adapter yet, so I don't have any path on going that way. I can put something up on YouTube to show the end of it if you want. If it is important, I would send it to you for your inspection.

Hi Catawba,
If the stem is .250 diameter, and is sticking out .35 or more, you will be able to clamp on the stem ok in either version of the Rock Chuck.... Keep in mind there is no true force trying to pull the probe from the spindle, so just a slight tighening of the clamp screw in the Rock Chuck till it doesnt want to pull out is all you need... and yes, if you have the 1/2 version of the chuck, and didnt purchase a Rock Sleeve, you would need the 1/2 to 1/4 sleeve.

Thanks for the feedback!

Ron

We did remove the cw adapter if using the roc?

rlane10347
08-06-2009, 07:32 AM
I have the rock chuck and have used the probe and it works very well. When I took off the tool holder I had to sand a little to get the deformed area off where the set screw dug into the plastic.

rjustice
08-06-2009, 11:03 AM
We did remove the cw adapter if using the roc?

Yes you have to remove the QC style bit adapter off of the probe shank by removing the 2 small set screws from the sides.

Dont get carried away with tightening it up in the Rock Chuck, only snug it till it doesnt want to slide out. You can easily crush the plastic stem if you over tighten it.

Rodeo1
08-06-2009, 07:51 PM
Hey Ron,

I just wanted to let you and everyone else here know how happy I am with the products I've gotten from you over the last couple years. I started out getting bits and tools which immediately improved my carving! Now, I've got the Rock Chuck on and I can't think of a strong enough word to describe my elation with it! Precision of my carvings is considerably better, the noise is significantly less, and vibration is all but eliminated. I literally didn't believe it until I experienced it!

The only thing I regret is waiting so long to get the Rock Chuck on my CW!

Thank you Ron for your great products and even more for the manner in which you sell and support them. Awesome, simply awesome! :-D

God bless!

John Sr.

rjustice
08-06-2009, 09:18 PM
Hey Ron,

I just wanted to let you and everyone else here know how happy I am with the products I've gotten from you over the last couple years. I started out getting bits and tools which immediately improved my carving! Now, I've got the Rock Chuck on and I can't think of a strong enough word to describe my elation with it! Precision of my carvings is considerably better, the noise is significantly less, and vibration is all but eliminated. I literally didn't believe it until I experienced it!

The only thing I regret is waiting so long to get the Rock Chuck on my CW!

Thank you Ron for your great products and even more for the manner in which you sell and support them. Awesome, simply awesome! :-D

God bless!

John Sr.

Hi John,
Thank you for the kind words. I have been trying really hard to supply only the best for our fellow carvers. I really appreciate this!

Happy Carving,

Ron

Digitalwoodshop
08-07-2009, 10:32 AM
My machine is humming along as I type, cutting a sign. You can see the improved quality of the cut letters.... It's remarkable.... A QC Fluttering Bit is just so old school... The Rock will pay for itself in better quality work, ie... less sanding and less repair parts caused by vibration. And.... Never having to pay for a new QC and Bit Holders and $15.00 shipping.

AL

liquidguitars
08-07-2009, 10:56 AM
I have two units running making guitar parts using the 1/2 Rock chuck making long and short carves. my CW's are unstoppable now running 100% without a break down since installing. "the old QC was my only issue with the CW" working fantastic!



CW with the Rock good combo? YES! you can see the rock in the background whoops wrong rock :)

here is violin number 4 just made using the Rock and CW. " sorry shameless violin plug"

http://liquidguitars.com/assets/images/ViolinR015.jpg

http://liquidguitars.com/assets/images/ViolinR016.jpg

LG

Digitalwoodshop
08-07-2009, 11:27 AM
WOW !!!! Excellent work again !!!!

AL:mrgreen:

Kenm810
08-07-2009, 11:58 AM
LG, Simply Amazing!!
Love seeing your photos, :eek:

Digitalwoodshop
08-07-2009, 03:58 PM
Two things love the late day sun in August.... Freshly Painted Signs and Ricky the Rattlesnake.... The Rock did not break out the center of the A's in the center sign... Not like the QC did....

We both decided to take the afternoon off....

Using the Rock and not disturbing the neighbors, the 2 footed versions and the slithering type.... :roll:

AL

Kenm810
08-07-2009, 04:19 PM
Signs and Text, I’m looking forward to using my Rock Chuck on some Centerline Text
in a few Plaques that I’ve set aside for carving.

Al,
In the mean time here’s A plaque with a few of your Rickies’ friends or relatives on it.

Digitalwoodshop
08-07-2009, 10:54 PM
WOW what a Tangled mess.... Speaking of Tangled mess... My Step Father came upon two Rattlesnakes in the path near the feed shed for the chickens.... They were shall we say..... connected at the tails.....

He said in all his years, never had he seen Rattlesnakes doing the Nasty.... (He said it a little different....) I was not home to see it...

That makes 7 sightings since July 4th..... And I have been walking in the fields twice a day for 2 weeks now.... The 3 hours cuts into my Carving Time but I need to get into shape...

Well, the closest thing to the subject line is the picture..... a ROCK.... :roll:

I went back an hour later and he was snoozing on a warm rock....

AL

liquidguitars
08-07-2009, 11:47 PM
I found this under my deck last night I think she looking for snakes.. :)

LG

rock hound

oclatta
08-08-2009, 12:20 PM
I ordered the Rock Chuck from Ron Justice a week or so ago. Between me sending him a check by snail mail and us ordering them faster than they can be produced, I have several weeks to wait.

To make use of the time I thought I would start the hassle of removing the CarveWright QC. I had ordered Ron's tools some time ago. I also remembered a hint that some smart person posted some time ago on this forum of taking a piece of 1/2" round material, in my case I used a 1/2" drill bit, putting a 1/2" adapter on it, heating it with a burns-o-matic torch, and putting it in the QC. (Use common sense to keep from getting burned or hurting the machine, like heating the 1/2" rod in a vise instead of in the machine, using pliers to move the rod to the machine and to hold the hot bit while chucking it into the QC, and lowering it down onto a piece of wood so that if it falls it won't set the belts on fire, etc.) This gets the heat to make the LockTite release right at the area needed. I let it sit a minute or two and even though I had used waaaay toooo much LockTite last time, with the heat and Ron's tools it came right off. I used a dental pick to remove the LockTite from the threads on the spindle. I also removed the adapters from the cutting and carving bits and ran very fine steel wool over them to remove any LockTite on them. I'm also lubing the flex shaft during the down time.

Looking forward to the arival of the Rock Chuck so that I can get back to carving.

Digitalwoodshop
08-08-2009, 12:57 PM
I missed that point in earlier posts about heating the drill bit prior to installing it... Very good idea.... Thanks !!!

AL

Steven Alford
08-08-2009, 08:47 PM
It seems like the heat will make the bit expand and not fit in the QC??

Steven Alford
08-08-2009, 09:04 PM
Well that was dumb, wasn't it!!!
The bit would be put in those worthless adapters first wouldn't they??
DUH!!!

Rodeo1
08-10-2009, 07:30 AM
LG ~ Your creations continue to amaze me. The violin "rocks!"

BTW - I am so enamoured with my Rock Chuck that if/when I buy another new CW I intend to order a RC at the same time. I'll start the new machine setup right out of the gate.

Have a great day all and God bless!

John Sr.

Tacis
08-10-2009, 01:39 PM
I thought I would put this on for those that have struggled with the removal of the QC. I did not like the idea of putting the torch to it and unfortunately have become very good at their removal.

Step one is remove the Z-Truck (I have gotten very good at this as well.

Step two is to remove the belt taking the two screws out

Step three is place a hot soldering iron in the QC. Wait about ten minutes

Step Four put your bit into an impact drill or impact wrench.

Step five is carefully hold the QC with the wrench and put the impact to it.

I have found that placing the Z truck in a vice/clamp before heating the QC up works better

I will try and remember to update a step by step the next time I remove a QC, starting with the Z truck removal.

Jvicaretti
08-16-2009, 01:39 PM
That is a cute dog, we used to have a dog who hunted snakes and anything else that moved.

Jvicaretti
08-16-2009, 01:41 PM
I saw a baby rattle snake for the first time in my life this summer. So they must "connect at the tail" on this side of the Deleware also :)

Digitalwoodshop
08-16-2009, 03:05 PM
I bet they do too.... Saw # 8 this week... I am walking twice a day for a total of about 3 hours to loose my belly.... I will be glad when they are gone for the season and my belly.....:D

I have Rock #2 installed on Machine 2... Machine 3 can wait some, it needs work.... Bearings... Ike's Redwood Dust and my Humidity made Redwood Cement of 2 Y roller bearings.... Plus I took the cut motor too....

AL

andes
08-16-2009, 03:17 PM
Ken, what staining/paint technique are you using -- I really like the way it looks. Would you be willing to share.



Signs and Text, I’m looking forward to using my Rock Chuck on some Centerline Text
in a few Plaques that I’ve set aside for carving.

Al,
I the mean time here’s A plaque with a few of your Rickies’ friends or relatives on it.

Kenm810
08-16-2009, 05:22 PM
Hi Andrea,

My machine has in storage for awhile, so, no carvings for now,
I've be playing with my CW Designer and using semi-tranparent
color over lays, so I could keep on sharing patterns and mpgs file
and to see what they might look like when I can start carving again.
These posts will explain how I do it :smile:

Let's Do Some Plaques and Signs (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?t=4921) post #173
Fractals, a new way to Look at them (http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?t=12189) post #8

Jvicaretti
08-17-2009, 10:32 AM
Have you been walking early or late to avoid the heat we've been having?

Kenm810
08-17-2009, 11:04 AM
Nope, I have a Inclining Treadmill, Elliptical, and Stationary Bike,
in our Air Conditioned Exercise Room down stairs. :wink:






The Inclining Treadmill is the 2 flights of stairs we use to get up and down to the lower level
The Elliptical is the shape of the paths I have to follow to get around all the stuff stored down there
And the Stationary bike is the 10 speed Bike I bought 50 years ago, that’s had a flat tire for the last 35 --- :razz:

geekviking
08-17-2009, 12:36 PM
The same gym equipment in my home!
(course, I can't get the wife to buy into it...)

JDPratt
08-18-2009, 08:21 AM
OK, I want to change both of the machines in the shop to the RC. Question, will this void the warranty from CW concerning the other parts of the machine? I hate to spend the money (or rather your money, since this is a government run shop paid for with tax dollars) if something on the machine IS going to break and then is not covered under the LHR warranty. From what I have read, people are having fewer problems and repairs once the RC is installed. True? Now, I am no expert, but I do have a business degree. If I could make my product better by partnering with a subsidiary company for parts, which in turn creates more buzz about my product, reduces warranty repairs, and increases customer satisfaction, it seems like a no brainer to me. I can’t believe LHR hasn’t put Ron on staff or made a sizable offer for the business. Anyway back to the original question, do I get the RC now, or wait until the warranty runs out.

Steven Alford
08-18-2009, 07:27 PM
You can put it on now. If there is a warranty problem, just switch the chuck back to the QC and send it in for repairs. No one will be the wiser.