Urgent news on operation of the Rock Chuck! [Archive]

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rjustice

05-22-2009, 04:54 PM

Everyone,
Please note that there have been reports of the bit touch off working two ways. I feel pretty confident that one of the earlier versions of the software would allow the machine to touch off a new bit length, then proceed to cut using that new bit length. Well the most recent version definitely does not work that way. What will happen is that it is going to use the tool length that it measured when you started the project as its tool length. Hence, if you touch off your carving bit sticking out about 1” and then when it asks you to load the next tool you leave the carving tool in, it touches it off again. It now thinks that the next tool is also sticking out that same length…. What is really happening is that when you hit 1, it uses that length, and if your cutout tool is sticking out 1-3/8 per my recommendation, your first cut is 3/8 deeper than intended. It is also going to cut through the tabs, and not hold your piece in place!!!

1) If you press 1 it uses the length that was touched off when you first started the project.
2) If you press 2 it gives you the opportunity to put what the machine thinks is the correct bit, then checks it again, if it matches the first touch off it begins the carve. If it doesn’t match it gives you the same question.
3) The short term work around is this…. You need to change out the bits when touching them off at the beginning of the project, and then somehow repeat getting them back into the chuck in the same place.
4) A few workaround ideas are, putting a ring of heat shrink tubing on the bit, and use it as a stop. You can use a permanent marker and eyeball to the line. You could make a depth gage by cutting a slot through a piece of hardwood, and when you slide the bit into place let the bottom of the bit rest in the slot, and the top of the wood rest against the bottom of the chuck.
5) A long term solution is to use depth rings. I can provide these down the road. They can be either pressed on or super glued on to the tool, and would always stay there. There are also spiral rings that could work well.
6) Another long term solution would be to ask for a software change that would allow a new tool length to be accepted when the tool is touched off… this would be the best solution… but im not gonna hold my breath on this one…

I will make this my top priority to get the best long term solution to this over the weekend.

Sorry for any problems people may have incurred from this.

If you are only using one tool to carve, this is not a concern... it is when you are using multiple tools in one project!

Happy Carving,

Ron

newcarver

05-22-2009, 05:39 PM

it wont matter to me, i only use the carve bit. Never have relied on the machine to cut out or router so it all good to me. Just have to get one now.

supershingler

05-22-2009, 05:42 PM

rjustice

05-22-2009, 06:14 PM

another thought might be to use a rubber o ring and just install the bit in the test and roll a oring up to the bottom of the chuck and when you reinstall later just slide the bit in until the oring touches the chuck. i dont believe you would have a problem with this.

just my thought

kendall

Ok... this could be a decent work around as well. If you are careful not to roll the ring down the shank. maybe put a little super glue on it to hold it in place.

I have nailed down a couple possiblities for long term solutions. It may be Tuesday before i can give a solid answer on it though because of the holiday.

Ron

PCW

05-22-2009, 07:15 PM

Just finished #1 machine up and going to do #2 tomorrow. I do not have time to test today but plan on giving it a try tomorrow.

Install went good I took a 3" piece of copper tube into the old chuck and put a piece of sheet metal behind the chuck to protect the belt. Applied heat to the bottom of copper tubing with a low flame for 2 min. and the chuck did not give up a fight.

I chose not to use loctite and will monitor close for the first couple of times.

As for the reference on the bits I do not see a problem as long as you know that you need to measure or use a reference for a quicker bit change.

As for the appearance it is well made and the bits sung up with very little effort. If it runs as good as it looks I will be very happy. Free at last.

Rock-On

Digitalwoodshop

05-22-2009, 07:35 PM

Talking to Ron tonight and there are reports of 2 carvers that have missing tabs and one broke a bit. It looks like I was TOTALLY WRONG in my interpretation of the bit length issue.

I might use the FIRST length when you select 1 or continue.... We are still trying to sort this out and after close of business on a 3 day weekend we won't have any quick answers.

Selecting 2 Refind might use the second time.... It is unknown at this time...

SO please use CAUTION with a cut path until this is sorted out... Watch all Cut Path cuts.

Another thing with the later versions of Designer I noticed that on a 3 bit project with a cut path and V Text it would sometimes ask for the V60 or V90 bit first and along with it's bit flag check, the first bit loaded will check the right side guide for board thickness. With a V60 or V90 it will then tell you it is too thick....

Watch this and see if it has anything to do with the missing tabs.

Sorry about that....

AL

hess

05-22-2009, 09:22 PM

mark1945

05-22-2009, 09:26 PM

liquidguitars

05-22-2009, 09:27 PM

not sure if this idea is wishfull thinking or not but i love to see a bit loading jig that you would never have to have your fingers on the carbide, the jig could use a spring clamp to hold the bit.. for the Carvewright, Eliminator chuck and the Rock, I also feel better about the Kids using this type of setup..

http://96.9.54.101/liquidguitars.com/assets/images/BitkeepR003.jpg

LG

PCW

05-22-2009, 09:33 PM

Mark

I don't really see a problem and long as you either measure the bit or have something like a piece of 1/4 clear plastic tubing cut to a link for a quick reference.

rjustice

05-22-2009, 10:02 PM

I thought when I saw this that it was going to cause problems.Thats why the Eliminator chuck I modified for my machine has a positive bit stop put up in the Z truck changing bits is no problem always go back to same depth.I just have a washer on top of chuck up against the shoulder inside spindle .

Something to consider is that there are many tools out there that will not have shank lengths that will bottom out and still stick out of the chuck far enough. I think that the depth ring on the tool will solve the problem. This would also give you something to grasp to pull the tool from the chuck.

Rocky

05-23-2009, 06:34 AM

rjustice

05-23-2009, 08:01 AM

Any chance in getting a "special" thread dedicated to the Rock chuck? Information on use is now in several threads. Since this is not an LHR product, maybe this suggestion is not feasible.

OR

Ron, it would be nice (hint, hint) if you could send email updates related to Rock chuck issues, instructions, recommendations, etc. to all Rock chuck owners.

Thanks,

Rocky,
I love the idea, but i tried that and had a problem that someone out there may be able to answer for me. When i try to email to a customer list, it bounces back saying something that basically looks like it is being treated as "Spam" mail. Im not sure if it is my ISP, or Outlook, but i also think that a spam filter will catch anything that is cc'd to a bunch of people...

Anyone that has info on how to fix this, i would love to understand a good work around. you can email me directly cw_parts@yahoo.com

Thanks,

Ron

SteveEJ

05-23-2009, 08:03 AM

Searched and found shank collars for bits.

http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?1042852205_2547+86

Hope this helps..

Steve

rjustice

05-23-2009, 08:20 AM

Searched and found shank collars for bits.

http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?1042852205_2547+86

Hope this helps..

Steve

Steve... This could work, although im not fond of the setscrew, as it will throw the balance off. As everyone is trying to solve this in their own way, dont invest heavily yet.
I have an idea that i think everyone will love. It addresses LG's concern about handling the cutting flutes of the tool when taking the bits in and out. A balanced ring will press onto the cutting bit, and then there will be a tube that covers the cutting flutes, and snaps onto the ring. You would use the tube to transfer tools in and out of the chuck, and it would easily snap on and off keeping you from ever having your fingers against the sharpend cutter flutes.

Any thoughts?

PCW

05-23-2009, 08:32 AM

Hey Steve

The only thing that bothers me about adding anything to the chuck is you run a risk of throwing the chuck off balance.

I personally don't see a problem with having a piece of precut clear tubing and using that for a quick reference point. Put the tubing on set the bit tighten and then remove tubing. Set screw on the new chuck is only a quarter turn so it won't slow you down in the least.

For those with limited disabilities they could use a 2x4 under the bit and then lower the Z axle down to adjust the proper bit height and then turn the set screw.

chebytrk

05-23-2009, 08:54 AM

So running with your example... what would be the length of the "pre cut" tubing for the cutting and carving bits? Just trying to run with your idea.

PCW

05-23-2009, 09:15 AM

You will need to stay above the flutes of the bit. Simple way to determine this is measure your current length of the bit that is sticking out of the old QC adapter.

Just stick a piece of clear plastic tubing with the same dia. as the bit onto the old QC adapter setup and cut the tubing at the end at the tip. There is no exact figure but the main thing is that all the bits need to be set at the same depth.

Digitalwoodshop

05-23-2009, 10:04 AM

Something I am going to do is measure from the bottom of Z Truck to the end of the bit of each bit before I change to the Rock. That way I know what the tip length normally is.

I like the block of wood that the bit rest on before you tighten it and the bit sleeve holder too.

I did order a few of the bit stop with the set screws as I am still waiting for my Plunge bits on 1/4 shaft in 3/8, 1/2, & 3/4 for my flat bottom outline text signs.

AL

Nighthawk12

05-23-2009, 10:42 AM

Al we could all send our bits to you and you could laser inscribe a line on them. ;)

Thanks
Nighthawk12

Digitalwoodshop

05-23-2009, 10:58 AM

Al we could all send our bits to you and you could laser inscribe a line on them. ;)

Thanks
Nighthawk12

They call that metal marking stuff Cermark.... Ground glass in FRIT like tooth paste that when lasered heats up and melts to the metal and fuses to it.....

My 20 and 30 watt laser would have a hard time doing it.... It likes 45 to 60 watts to work.

http://www.ferro.com/Our+Products/Glass/Products+and+Markets/CerMark/

As for the mass mailing of email and spam controls it might work if you send it to yourself first then use the BBC Or Blind Carbon Copy function for all the other addresses.

That way you don't share your whole customer base of email addresses for anyone to "Harvest".....

AL

Nighthawk12

05-23-2009, 11:02 AM

[quote=Digitalwoodshop;91684]They call that metal marking stuff Cermark.... Ground glass in FRIT like tooth paste that when lasered heats up and melts to the metal and fuses to it.....

My 20 and 30 watt laser would have a hard time doing it.... It likes 45 to 60 watts to work.

AL if someone could do it Would it work

Thanks
Nighthawk12

PCW

05-23-2009, 11:12 AM

OK here what I did I measured the two chucks from the bottom of the spindle to the bottom of the chucks and there is only 5mm difference.

Ron's chuck is only 2.5mm longer but since I measured from the bottom of the spindle it my not of threaded up as far.

Original 35mm length from bottom of spindle
New RC 40mm length from bottom of spindle

Removed 5mm from the plastic tube in picture one
23292

I will use the the plastic tube for a gauge for my next bit
23291

You would need a piece of tube for each dia bit or you can just use a 1/2' tubing but you would have to hold it in place till you tightened up the set screw. There are several way to make a quick gauge and they don't have to be complicated.

Digitalwoodshop

05-23-2009, 11:16 AM

Normally a YAG Laser is used to mark metal, look at the marking on your router bits, it was most likely done with a YAG laser.

I have CO2 Lasers and with the CerMark solution you can coat the metal part with the CerMark and the CO2 would get it hot enough to fuse to the bit. If it does not get hot enough it will just Wipe Off, if it does get hot enough you must grind it off...

I know a guy that was doing HUMMER Bumpers and Side Steps. It was Wipe off or FOREVER..... A fine line....

Yes it is possible.... A fine tip permanent marker would be way cheaper....

AL

roughcut

05-23-2009, 12:31 PM

I think what I will do for right now if Ihave a project with bit changes cutting or carving is before I remove one from the RC is slide one of the old QC bit adapters on it and snug it down then when I have to reinsert it it will have to be the same depth. Got use them some how..:):)

supershingler

05-23-2009, 12:37 PM

great idea roughcut

i was about to through all mine in the recycle bin

kendall

PCW

05-23-2009, 12:43 PM

Bill

I think what ever will work for you is the best way, Just does not to have to be a complicated just practical. The market for used quick chucks & bit adapters is going to be a hard sale.

I think that in a time I will offer mine for free to someone that does not want to upgrade if they pay the shipping. Will post later.

Kenm810

05-23-2009, 12:57 PM

quote: "does not to have to be a complicated just practical"

I totally agree! :cool:

All Plastic with Adjustable Plug at the Bottom

liquidguitars

05-23-2009, 01:05 PM

quote: "does not to have to be a complicated just practical"

I totally agree! :cool:

All Plastic

a plastic shot glass for your bit.. and as long as it will not slip "sticking in the chuck at the wrong hight" a good work around untill Ron gets the depth disks. I also think the old worn bit adapters stop is a good idea!

LG

rjustice

05-23-2009, 02:25 PM

This group never ceases to amaze me!.... You guys ROCK!!!! amazing how many great solutions are comming to surface!

Happy Carving!

Ron

easybuilt

05-23-2009, 08:56 PM

I received and installed my Rock Chuck today! No problem and carving my first project now. No vibration and so much quieter! I marked the bits with a sharpie. Everything is going GREAT! Thanks Ron!
Tom Watson

Steven Alford

05-23-2009, 09:35 PM

quote: "does not to have to be a complicated just practical"

I totally agree! :cool:

All Plastic with Adjustable Plug at the Bottom

So Ken, where do you get the little plugs??

Kenm810

05-23-2009, 09:43 PM

Hi Steven,

If you check this Site, you can locate a local Dealer outlet.
Plus some Hobby Shops have 1/4" nylon bolts they sell for RC planes, Boats and Cars.

http://www.sisweb.com/lc/sis/plugs_ferrules.htm
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK196&P=M

WorkedWood

05-23-2009, 10:34 PM

Your local Lowe's should carry the nylon bolts for the end of the tubing. I've used them on my jigs in the past. They are sold in the specialty bins/drawers.

Steven Alford

05-23-2009, 10:37 PM

Thanks guys

earlyrider

05-24-2009, 08:41 PM

This AM I calibrated the offsets then removed the modified QC to give the Rock a test. To ensure repeatability in installing bits, I superglued neoprene O-rings as stops (same place the bits were set in the QC adapters). With the Rock firmly set, the bit changes went without a snap. When the 90V was requested, the truck didn't want to extend the bit plate... a little dusting and check of the usual suspects, then the truck did its thing. No problem with remeasuring the bit. The carve came out fine, no vibration, and the volume was commensurate with the modified QC. Another observation, the temp of the bits immediately after cutting (in quartersawn oak) was hardly above room temp and I removed them with the wrench and my real man finners (no lacerations or bloody race to my bride for emergency medical band-aid app.)
In fairness, I didn't notice elevated bit temp on the modified QC either. All in all, I'm very satisfied with the Rock's performance.

Rick P

05-24-2009, 11:12 PM

James RS

05-24-2009, 11:37 PM

I think he put the O rings on the bits while they were in the QC adapters then removed the bits from the adapters

rjustice

05-25-2009, 12:10 AM

earlyrider,
Why and where did you glue O-rings? I have the Rock, but I'm not understanding yet the O-ring deal. I have been emailing with Ron Justice and maybe he will reply next week.

Did you glue O-rings onto the bits?

Know anywhere to get the cutting bits without adapters??

Hi Rick,
I answer my emails several times daily... and havent received one from you. if you click on the blue link below it will automatically open up an email to send to me. There is an underscore between the CW and Parts that is hard to see, and that may be the problem.
The idea of the O ring was just to provide a stop that would repeat the tool length if you are using more than one tool in a carving. Another idea was to use one of the tubes that i ship the cutters in, and cut it off to a length of about 1-1/2 like shown in the picture below. This will allow you to grasp the tool to pull it out and put it in without touching the cutting flutes as well. It is also a good work around.

Thanks,

Ron

earlyrider

05-25-2009, 09:23 AM

Most any hardware store should have them. Yes,I slid them on the tool bits when they were in the adapters, then glued the O-rings in place with thick superglue and accelerator. Then I removed the bits from the adapters.
Ron

Rick P

05-25-2009, 09:44 AM

OK - so exposing 1.50 inches of each bit is the key point...and there are several ways to accomplish this.

Is this true for the V-bits too ?

AskBud

05-25-2009, 10:05 AM

OK - so exposing 1.50 inches of each bit is the key point...and there are several ways to accomplish this.

Is this true for the V-bits too ?
The measurements shown in the CW Manual should be maintained.
The Raster & 1/8" cutting bit need the extra length due to their deep penetration or thru-cut.
AskBud

Digitalwoodshop

05-25-2009, 10:52 AM

You can install the bit in question and manually extend the head down along side the board and look and see the physical max depth of the Z Truck. That way you will know if the bit will be able to reach the depth you need.

AL

rjustice

05-25-2009, 02:36 PM

OK - so exposing 1.50 inches of each bit is the key point...and there are several ways to accomplish this.

Is this true for the V-bits too ?

Rick,
I show a 1-1/2 length on the tube with the bottom in it. It is recessed into the tube about 1/8"... which will leave the bit sticking out of the chuck 1-3/8 It lools like this should work for both bits.

Ron

cnc4me

05-25-2009, 04:49 PM

I just finished a project that used 3 tools. I used the shrink tube method with no worries. I placed 1/4 sections of shrink on all my cutters, it is possible to double up the shrink tube to give a thicker stop but not sure if its needed. Just my two cents. The chuck is great!

rjustice

05-25-2009, 06:17 PM

Thanks for the update CNC... I am glad that you are liking the chuck!

Happy Carving!

Ron

hess

05-25-2009, 07:52 PM

Well I'm up and and cutting great!!
Used the O Rings with SG. Once you learn to not let the cramp spin it is a cake walk.

Now I need to open a QC store I got so many of them and the adapters Thanks all

Ron keep up the good work

Hess