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View Full Version : Center-line in a carve region, etc...



Jeff_Birt
03-02-2009, 01:26 PM
Some folks have discovered that they can trick the machine into routing center-line text into a carve region by splitting the file into two parts. The first part where the carve region is made and the second part is the center-line text. When the second project is set up the bit is jogged over the already carved area so the touch down to find the board surface is down in the carve region.

Others have used this trick to use sleds with higher sides than the stock being carved.

I have mentioned a few times recently that this is a trick and will not always work. One of the software engineers saw my most recent warning about this issue and made a point to explain to me why they do not (and have never) recommended it. In fact the 'Jog-to-Point' feature was added to allow you to be sure and touch down on a good surface.

When you touch down procedure used to find the board surface has a very limited operational range. It has a good idea where the top of the board is but touches down on it twice to get it a very accurate reading. If you touch down in a already carved region or touch down on stock mounted on a sled where the sled rails are higher you will run into the following problems:

1) The touch down point be out of the range the machine expects the top of the board to be in meaning that the calibration is does based on that point is garbage.

2) Perhaps more importantly the machine will have no idea where the actual top of the board or sled rails are. This can/probably will cause the machine to run a bit or the Z-truck itself into the higher portion of the board or sled (because the machine has no idea that it is there.)

Either of these problems can cause sever damage to your machine so please don't do it.

Again let me reiterate that this trick has NEVER been a recommended practice. Using it can severely damage your machine.

I thought it best to bring this information forward in a separate post as I would hate to see anyone risk damaging their machine by trying this.

brdad
03-03-2009, 06:40 AM
There is no dispute you are correct - As in many cases, tricking a machine into doing something it is normally not capable of introduces risk to machine, operator, or both. I have heard of people placing a stick between their seat and accelerator pedal as a makeshift cruise control, using cement blocks or wood from the wood pile to hold their cars up in the air while working underneath, and tying two ladders together to make them longer. Sometimes those practices worked, sometimes - not so much. The truth is in all of these cases, there were reasonably safe ways created which were invented to eliminate the need for the risky tricks (cruise control, jack stands and extension ladders).

So where I am going with this is - CW knows the desire for Centerline in a carve region has been discussed and asked for by many of us. It's quite obvious it could be done and done safely, otherwise we could not do vector carves in a carve region safely as in my crappy example below. The end product is no different, it's only the procedure that is different since Centerline uses a variable depth to maintain the correct cut width on the surface.

Centerline is great, but it's a lot of money when it has a limitation of only being on the top of the board. I have no doubt Centerline in a carve region could be programmed into the CW software. Yes, if it is done in a inconsistent depth carve region it may look like crap, I think we're willing to accept that. But if CW says it can't be done, they need new programmers. It may take an extra 5000 lines of code but it can be done. Tricking the machine is not the best way to do it. CW can make it so there is no need for tricks and the hundreds if not thousands of posts on this topic will be irrelevant!

Sorry to ramble on...

bjbethke
03-03-2009, 09:57 AM
There is no dispute you are correct - As in many cases, tricking a machine into doing something it is normally not capable of introduces risk to machine, operator, or both. I have heard of people placing a stick between their seat and accelerator pedal as a makeshift cruise control, using cement blocks or wood from the wood pile to hold their cars up in the air while working underneath, and tying two ladders together to make them longer. Sometimes those practices worked, sometimes - not so much. The truth is in all of these cases, there were reasonably safe ways created which were invented to eliminate the need for the risky tricks (cruise control, jack stands and extension ladders).

So where I am going with this is - CW knows the desire for Centerline in a carve region has been discussed and asked for by many of us. It's quite obvious it could be done and done safely, otherwise we could not do vector carves in a carve region safely as in my crappy example below. The end product is no different, it's only the procedure that is different since Centerline uses a variable depth to maintain the correct cut width on the surface.

Centerline is great, but it's a lot of money when it has a limitation of only being on the top of the board. I have no doubt Centerline in a carve region could be programmed into the CW software. Yes, if it is done in a inconsistent depth carve region it may look like crap, I think we're willing to accept that. But if CW says it can't be done, they need new programmers. It may take an extra 5000 lines of code but it can be done. Tricking the machine is not the best way to do it. CW can make it so there is no need for tricks and the hundreds if not thousands of posts on this topic will be irrelevant!

Sorry to ramble on...
I looked at your image you posted and the word "VECTOR" that you used is not centerline text carving, you are drawing the carving and it is only carving on a line only. You could carve Centerline Text in a carve region if you used the program "ai2mpc" - But you would need a program that generates Illustrator files (.ai), and also know how to install the “ai2mpc” program on your computer. Thanks to JLT’s e-mail I found out how to do that - Thanks JLT, BJB

Jeff_Birt
03-03-2009, 10:12 AM
OK, we are getting off track. The point of this notice was to let everyone know that fooling the machine with a lower touchdown point is dangerous and is NOT recommended.

Any tricks used to accomplish centerline in a carve region etc, is just that, a trick. You do so at your own risk.

Dan-Woodman
03-03-2009, 11:00 PM
How else was electricty invented, other than a trick? LOL
and how else would they have added a lot of the new updates to designer if the guys here hadn't experimented and proved that it works. Have fun, but like Jeff said "do it at your own risk. Have commen sence when you do something . If there are any doughts, don't do it, or get on the forum and talk about it.
later Daniel

bayea
03-09-2009, 10:29 PM
WHEN will we be able to use Centerline in a carve region ??????? (without having to trick the machine)
It is obviously a much wanted feature, so all you CW people . . . . .

WHEN WILL BE BE ABLE TO USE CENTERLINE IN A CARVE REGION ???
When the feature is available, is when i will buy it.

JVallario
03-10-2009, 11:18 AM
How about submitting an electronic petiton to the CW folks. I would think every user would sign it. And though I'm not a programmer I shouldn't think it would be a huge project. Perhaps if we showed CW that everyone wants it they might consider it?

cnsranch
03-10-2009, 12:10 PM
They know...

What I'd like to know is what the real problem is - this machine does some incredible things, so wassup?

Can't figure it out?
Don't know how?
Don't care? (this one I don't believe)
We're working on it?
Not important?

Given the capabilities of the machine, this cannot be a big deal, can it?

brdad
03-10-2009, 01:26 PM
I can't help but think it'd only be so much as the depth setting for the centerline would be the depth of the top surface, instead the depth of the carve. So in theory if you carved .25 deep on a standard board, it would look like crap, but if you ran it through a planer and took .25 off, it'd be perfect. That way the machine would know where the actual top of the board was (by the bit touching down to the surface before carving) and it would also know the desired top of the text.

Yes, I can see people getting confused. But I doubt it'd be as many as are confused about centerline in a carve region.

AWoodsmith
04-05-2009, 03:15 AM
So is there any updae on this topic and what are the chances of this wish coming into reality?

Ed

mikemel
08-28-2009, 03:54 PM
I believe carvewright already has the tools to make this work. A feature could be added to the text tool; call it "centerline in a carve region" or whatever. When the project carve got to the point of adding this text, the machine would first ask for the installation of the probe instead of a carving bit. The CW would then proceed to measure the surface depths along the path of the desired centerline text. This probe data path would then be "added" to the centerline path information resulting in a new centerline data path adjusted for the actual surface where the text will be carved. The operator would next be asked to install the appropriate bit as usual to carve the centerline text.

Metallus
08-28-2009, 06:12 PM
The max depth of the 90deg bit into any board is 0.75" before the truck bottoms out.

Hank
08-28-2009, 07:45 PM
My 2 cents. It seems to me if I do a CL text within a carved region, and I screw up an place the text close to the edge of the carve region don't I risk the possibility of tearing the edge of the carved region with the 90 or 60 degree bit. I can see why it would be dangerous to do this. I make enough mistakes on my own without inviting more disaster.
Just my opinion.
Hank

DocWheeler
08-28-2009, 07:56 PM
Hank,

That could be a problem if you were using the wide 60 or 90 degree bits. However, you can get 1/8" wide bits for CL from Ron Justice that would solve that problem.

AskBud
10-12-2010, 12:35 PM
There is now a new software package to handle Centerline text in a recessed area. It is titled "Conform Vectors".

Here is a thread that speaks to some members initial testing upon release.
http://forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?16538-Conforming-Vectors-Test&p=140112#post140112

Here is a link to the LHR sales page.
http://www.carvewright.com/2010CWweb/cwsoftware.htm
AskBud

cestout
10-18-2010, 12:45 PM
The "not scaling" evidently includes not allowing for the extra thickness of a sled. It cut right thru my 1/8" thick sled. The cutout area with a carved out area behind it worked fine. A possible workaround would be to have a zero depth carved region behind it. I will try that soon, but if someone else gets a chance first, please let me know if it works.
Clint

grt520
06-01-2016, 08:56 PM
I picked a scroll from the patterns depot. I applied to the cross with dove pattern and used conforming vectors and centerline text to carve out the lettering. This worked fine when my project was 3/4" thick and the letters surface were like 1/8" down from the original board surface. The cross carving gave me a lot of headaches cleaning it up afterwards so I decided to create the next one by carving just the dove and the scroll and gluing it to the cross. I just laid out the scroll on 3/4" board and used conforming vectors to carve the lettering. The carving came out fine, but when it came time to change bits and carve the lettering, the 60 degree v bit started carving the letters in space instead of the lowered surface. Then the machine failed with a Z-Axis stall. Huh??? It didn't carve any letters in the new surface of the scroll. I had the new surface down at about 5/8" inches, leaving 1/8 inch thick flat surface of the scroll to write on. The Designer 3, shows it just fine and that's what I expected the machine to do. It failed. After a 3 hour carve, how do I salvage the scroll and lettering??? I'm rarely able to complete a project without this machine failing in one way or another. It's very frustrating.