How it works.

[Jeff_Birt]

Folks please go read the forum posting guidelines: http://forum.carvewright.com/policy.php. Then understand that this is CarveWrights forum, they own it, they pay for it and they make the rules.

This forum is a great place for all of use users to congregate and share ideas and suggestions. It has a very friendly and helpful atmosphere and it is in all of our interests to keep it that way.

Post that are inflammatory, insulting, whining and generally not constructive will be removed. This is a USERS forum not the complaint department. If your having a problem and are looking for a solution then ask away you will find hundreds of fellow users offering a hand. Their ideas may be different than yours, and some are better than others but generally they are all of good intention. Take their advise or not but don't bash them for offering it.

If you have a grievance please remember THIS IS NOT THE COMPLAINT DEPARTMENT. Nobody here can do a darn thing w.r.t what ever you want to gripe about, and further more nobody really wants to listen to you gripe about it either. (Lot's of people will offer to help if you are after a solution though.)

If a moderator sees something that does not seem like it falls within the guidelines then we take the appropriate action. This can range from removing a post to banning a spam account. Generally if we remove a post your sent a short PM explaining why. Please note again: This is CarveWrights forum, they make the rules. If you get a note explaining why your post was nixed, don't reply with a insulting PM to your friendly moderator. Get over it.

For me I volunteered to become a moderator to help keep the forum a nice friendly place, free from spam and other nastiness that can occur online. I have given countless hours of my time to try and help out here, not only helping by answering questions, giving advice, answering PMs and other things behind the scenes. I love my machine and want everyone else to enjoy working with their machine just as much as I do. What I don't want to do is make enemies or put up with being insulted and called names by folks who got their wrist slapped for some (minor) infraction.

I will no longer accept PMs filled with hate and vitriol. I don't need the aggrivation in my life and frankly don't wish allow other folks to subject me to that nonsense for another minute. You folks who want to do that can go find antoher whipping boy.

I'm sure that some folks have been offended in the past by my actions, and that is definitely not my intent. We all have to follow the rules, I have had by posts altered and/or removed as needed by CW and that is just fine with me. It helps to keep the forum on track and a nice place for all.

[fwharris]

Jeff,

First off thanks for your commitment and support to CarveWright and the forum. I for one have benefited from not only your knowledge of the carving machine but also your electrical expertise.

When I see a post/answer authored by you and maybe 2 hands full of others on the forum I will most likely read those first. Most likely the answers/advice given was not only correct for the information posted but also support was given for finding out more information on the subject. I am also sure that some of your replies you can speed type by now. IYKWIM

I think sometimes an individual interprets the written word in a totally different way than if they listened to it. This is probably most true when the individual has a frustration factor going on do to machine issues. (one could spell this with 6 letters);). It is probably good that others can not see how hard the keys are being pressed also.

We as users of the forum do have to remember that most of the moderators are volunteers (no $$ except for the day techs). I commend the moderators here for their time commitment, patience and support for making this a place to share our successes, knowledge and frustrations. At no time should they be subjected to any kind of abuse and if they are the individual should be dealt with in the appropriate manner. This is not the place for such behavior and if one finds them self acting that way they should step back and take a look at them self.

Most often it takes a bigger man to pull his foot out of his mouth or his head out of his posterior than one who wants to put it there.

[Tom75]

jeff i think you are doing a good job on hear . keep up the good work

[Spanglerg@hotmail.com]

Jeff, Your dedication and commitment to the forum are to be saluted! I sure the vast majority of forum users truly appreciate the incredible job that you perform. Keep Up The Great Work!

"YOU GOT THE RIGHT STUFF"!

[hess]

Jeff
I owe you an apology for the way I reacted to you when my post was pulled. You did not rate that. Like I said being new to here I dont know the way things work, or who works them. Sometimes frustration levels get high quickly, often it is the man just trying to do his job that gets the crap just like you got from me today.
I hope you will accept this and we can start over on more solid ground and with time we can work more closely. Sometimes it is those that start out the farthest apart that become the closest.

Thanks for all the hard work you do
Hess

[Icutone2]

Jeff,
I am with Tom And Greg, Keep up the good job!

[atauer]

Well, since Jeff posted his thoughts, I am gonna go ahead and post mine. Almost everyone here knows that there are a few technicians that frequent this forum, as well as a couple other woodworking forums. We offer advice from a user standpoint, not a technician's standpoint. We do not have to do this. It is not in our job description. However, we do because we enjoy interacting with our customers. It allows us to get to know our customers better, which makes diagnosing issues easier on our end.

Over the past few months, some of us have received some negative feedback from a few customers. Many have been from posts that have been removed by either the moderators or the administrators. Whenever a post gets removed, it is for the good of everyone, not just us.

As Jeff stated, we do not have to put up with this. I have received numerous negative pm's, regarding some of my actions. I do apologize if some feel that I am out of line, but I am simply enforcing the rules of the forum. Alot of the time, we will let things slide, just to be friendly. However, if it is way out of line, the thread is gone.

I am also no longer going to be accepting PMs that are hate filled or complaining about the actions taken by the moderators or administrators. If you have an issue with the machine and/or software, by all means ask for help. If you feel that the advice you got isn't correct, contact the technical department for further assistance, and we will gladly help. That is what we are here for.

If I have offended anyone, I apologize. In fact, in an email exchange with myself and Jeff yesterday, we both apologized to each other for some of the stuff we had said and done.

I have alot of respect for what our moderators do. They do not get paid to do this, and they do this simply to help everyone else.

Moderators, I applaud you for what you do. You have my upmost respect. I hope that the negativity expressed by some does not drive any of you away, as you guys do a standup job on here. Thank you for everything you do.

[jadnil]

These are interesting thoughts, and as a new CW user I can both understand the frustration of those on the receiving end as well as those of us who are new users.

Coming from a very technical and CNC background, and having read all of the boards and sought advice prior to buying one, I thought I knew what to expect. Reports on this board of helpful service staff at CW really helped push me over the edge, in spite of all the issues, into buying one. I figured I'd have solid support behind me with issues that were bound to arise.

In terms of support, this board has proven to be a great resource to me and countless others. And no one should loose their cool and flame the extremely helpful folks here when they have issues. But let me suggest that at times, defensive posturing might unwittingly draw more 'fire'. Acknowledging that this is still a high-maintenance, ‘brittle’ platform, with openness and transparency of all the good AND BAD around this machine, does have it's place on this board (or another?). In fact criticisms, offered positively, should be viewed by CW not as negativity but as opportunities for wringing the imperfections out of this machine.

As an early adopter of the iRobot products (Roomba and Scooba), I was like a beta tester for quite a while, spending a great deal of my own time helping (along with countless others) improve those machines to the degree where they were ready for the mass market. Had the mass marketing begun a year or two before it did, they might as well been wearing steak underwear in a pit-bull ring. And these were much less sophisticated devices than the CW. Similarly, I also see lots of excuses being made by, dare I say over-zealous CW defenders, for flaws in the machine and it's software that rapidly become evident. Not everything that goes wrong is some type of 'user error' or, in the interest of robustness, is an error that the user should be allowed to commit. Yes, the CW is evolving rapidly but I suggest that it still has a ways to go before it is suitable for "mass consumption" (i.e. more idiot-proof). Certainly, the help of a dedicated and loyal following is key to this mission.

We all know the wonderful things the machine can do, so to focus on improvement, the problems I’ve encountered over two weeks of intensive usage are as follows:

1) Out of the box, my scanning probe was defective - the wire going into the housing, when wiggled, would open / close the connection.

2) The software crashes about 2 times per hour on my plain-vanilla, up-to-date PC.

3) The cutting bit snapped during a .4 inch plunge into 1/2" pine. (No, there was no wobble, the chuck was clean and lubed, the board was under the roller, etc. etc. etc.)

4) Unexpected / Unanticipated resizing of scanned images.

5) One or two carvings have started (and continued) 2” above the board surface (again, all sensor clean, etc.)

I called CW support about the most pressing of these issues and well...the response was less-than-expected given what I'd come to expect from reading case histories on this board. They want me to send the probe back or take it apart myself and “fix” it. Hmmmm....where was the Quality Control there!? On the bit broken bit - send it in and we'll examine it (which I think means ‘good luck’). Well, OK but I’ve been doing this for 30 years and my experience tells me otherwise. In any case, reading how helpful they were to others on this board, I asked if that was the best they could do...the curt response was "just following procedures, sir". Not impressed.

The bottom-line, as with the iRobots and it’s associated ‘help’ boards years ago, the folks on this board are not a good representation of your everyday (future) user of the CW who buys from a mass-merchant. We are mostly technical, experienced, patient (well, sometimes :) ) and perhaps most importantly, have low expectations having done the research and read the good, the bad, and the ugly. We are willing to put up with issues and work through them. BUT...the average buyer from a Lowes or ACE Hardware will have high expectations - hey, this is a $2K+ investment and for that, quick and easy results will be expected – with a minimum of dickering. So will these users be disappointed? Probably largely so...and that just might be a tidal wave of venting.

So wrapping up (as he dons his asbestos suit), I've tried to make an honest assessment of just one person’s (my) initial ‘honey-moon’ (hey, this should be the best, right?) experiences with the CW and CW support, but mainly attempting to offer up some thoughts for genuine product improvement.

The machine has fantastic capabilities and when all the quirks are worked out, it will be out of this world but in the mean time, I make no apologies for expecting a product to live up to expectations as set forth by the manufacturer – without excuses! The support staff could be more friendly and helpful, but for now I remain a supporter of the machine, but not necessarily in the prime-time sense (yet). Of course, since prime-time is where CW is headed now, I'm sure this thread will be cut out. (Let's hope that steak-underwear doesn't become too heavy on ‘em!)

My lousy 2 cents.

[hess]

jadnil

Well stated. My feelings exactly I just dont have the patents you have. Hey I'm a Lowe's person.lol

Hess

[Digitalwoodshop]

Jadnil,

The air carve could be because the bit did not touch the bit flag. The Z could have hung up due to dust in the Z Belt cogs, the Flex Shaft touching the side of the top cover, or a bad Z Motor most likely a old 16 pin Z.

It's all about the bit touching the bit flag. Watching that step will help you see what went wrong.

While the Z Truck is on it's way down to touch the bit plate it is looking for a jump in Z Motor current, then it backs up. A Air carve could be a current surge 2 inches away from the bit plate.

I even caused a Air Carve by turning on my Dust collector as it was dipping down to touch the bit plate.

AL

[luckettg]

Jadnil's comments pretty much sum up my opinions and reasons for such. My experience has been that the folks here were very helpful, while the customer support did not help me, nor has to date, at all. I am very, very grateful for this forum and appreciate what all of you are doing to make it work. I am disappointed at how the CW machine has so many problems as I did not expect that, but my background is well suited for tinkering it along in my shop....especially with the hand holding done here to help me. I am looking forward to the day when most of the quirks and bugs (end of beta testing) is arrived at for this machine as its potential is awsome. It is kind of cool being part of this process and getting to know folks here. It is a new application of older technology, and a neat idea.

Jeff, I am curious about how you can block nasty PMs without blocking all of them or reading to know which ones are good or bad. I agree completely that complaints that are not used to present a problem that we can solve here should be directed to CW and not here. Come to think of it, that may be why the Customer Service people are the way they are at CW?:p

[cnsranch]

The bottom-line, as with the iRobots and it’s associated ‘help’ boards years ago, the folks on this board are not a good representation of your everyday (future) user of the CW who buys from a mass-merchant. We are mostly technical, experienced, patient (well, sometimes :) ) and perhaps most importantly, have low expectations having done the research and read the good, the bad, and the ugly. We are willing to put up with issues and work through them. BUT...the average buyer from a Lowes or ACE Hardware will have high expectations - hey, this is a $2K+ investment and for that, quick and easy results will be expected – with a minimum of dickering. So will these users be disappointed? Probably largely so...and that just might be a tidal wave of venting.


Since we're trying to put things in perspective...

Take a minute (you folks that are in your fifties like me) and think back to when you either bought your first, or sat in front of your first personal computer.

Mine was a brand-new IBM PC JR., with 256k of RAM, 5.25" floppies, one disk drive, no way to save your work without putting in a disk, etc. Three programs I bought for $250 a piece - a word, spreadsheet, and some other waste of money. You had to continually pull one disk, and add the other to get anything to work.

This $1,200 boat anchor could "do it all". I was most excited when I got the thing to print out a pic of the Mona Lisa on the $500 dot matrix printer I bought.

Surely you guys remember.

jadnil, I'm not gonna disagree with one thing you said - but take your post back to 1980, put "PC" in place of "CCW", and it's like Deja Vu all over again.

I went to graduate school in 1991, and was told that I needed a new computer so that I could get on the internet (?) and communicate via e-mail (?) - I don't even think it was called that then. No "Windows", dude - My computer ran off of DOS Shell - the "E-Mail" was based on a program that took a month to learn - unbelievable. Oh, BTW, $4,000 for that boat anchor.

Now, you can buy 1,000 times the unit for about $399 at Wal-Mart - let me say it again - Wal-Mart.

Today, five year old kids can get on the 'Net and download pics, music, etc.

But, I gave my dear old 88 year old Mom a PC two years ago that I had and tried to get her internet active - she simply couldn't get the hang of any of it. It was all Greek. She gave up.

Nobody thought that they could plug one of those new-fangled computers into the wall and be an expert 25 years ago. We knew that there was a STEEP learning curve, but we saw what the machine could do, and were willing to learn how to make it dance.

I'm not at all suggesting that we're 25 years away from our CCW being the commodity PC's are today - the learning curve isn't low, but it isn't as high as the PC curve, but it sure would be if one were to buy their first PC the same day they bought the CCW.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - if you do not posses a fundamental grasp of PC's, and how various programs interact with each other, run, don't walk, away from the CCW.

This machine is on the cutting edge of what it can do - hell, even LHR doesn't completely understand. The folks that are the the most knowledgeable of the machine are right here on this Forum, and admit that they learn something new every day. Anyone that thinks they can walk into their Lowe's, buy one, go home, plug it in and turn out a masterpiece is either being sold a bill of goods, or they're deluded.

I didn't think I could turn out a fretwork grandfather's clock the day I bought my first scroll saw - did anybody here?

I sure as hell didn't think I could frame a house with my first hammer.

And I never thought I could win the Indy 500 with that '72 Celica.

The folks on this board had better be a good representation of your everyday (future) user of the CW who buys from a mass-merchant.

But that's just me.

[Dyna Rider]

Anyone that thinks they can walk into their Lowe's, buy one, go home, plug it in and turn out a masterpiece is either being sold a bill of goods, or they're deluded.


http://carvewright.com/cms/machine
“Using the CarveWright Woodworking System is as easy as 1-2-3.”
“Out of the Box, Ready to Go”

[cnsranch]

Guess you had to duck to miss my point.

[Jeff_Birt]

Folks I appreciate all the comments and I'm happy my point was received in the spirit it was intended. Before we stray to far from the theme of the thread I just would ask that everyone reflect upon the fact that folks have been able to present different views about a subject related to the CW and be respectful to each other.

Constructive criticism does us all good.

[SeaCapt97]

I both agree and disagree with Jadnil. I agree that even if it's only one third the cost of its commercial counterparts ANY machine or tool should work trouble free for a reasonable amount of time. Next to my table saw my routers are the hardest working tools in my shop. My favorite and most used router cost me just over two hundred dollars, and at about ten years old, has never needed any repairs. My two THOUSAND dollar CC has been down three times in ninety-five hours! I realize that high tech computer based equipment in a wood shop is like taking a runway model on a tugboat but you outta be able to leave the dock and make a little way before the trouble starts.

That said, I have found that my personal experience with tech support has been very good. They have always been very helpful and courteous. Though of late, they are beginning to sound a bit stressed on the phone. Now that there are many more machines in the field they are probably getting overwhelmed with calls. It is a bit unusual, but I don't mind making my own repairs with warranty parts; it beats the two weeks it takes to ship the machine from Chicago to Texas and back. Doing my own repairs also takes some the mystery out the machine and helps to fully understand its limits. I think the entire tech support team is great but would be remiss if I didn't give Barry a deserved "two thumbs up" for a little extra effort and friendliness.

My humble opinion is, that the root problem is quality control. It makes sense that LHR outsource the actual manufacturing. But perhaps a few more dollars spent on inspection might go a long way toward customer satisfaction and company reputation. My brother manages a machine shop which manufactures parts for Case and John Deere. Some of the more critical parts require 100% inspection per the customer's specifications. Of course this costs more but I, for one, would be willing to pay a reasonable amount more to know that the Quick Change Chuck or Probe that I just bought will work perfectly, straight out of the box. I do realize that operator error factors in greatly in many breakdowns, but I would at least like the opportunity to break it myself. There are just way too many posts regarding brand new probes with bad solder joints and I, myself, just returned a brand new Quick Change that was faulty.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't blame LHR for the weak points in a wonderful machine. I just wish that they would demand better quality from their suppliers. We might all benefit. LHR would see more bottom line and we would see more sawdust on the floor! Heck, even our Moderators would have less "ranting" posts to deal with. Sounds like a win - win - win to me.

Keep the faith guys. We're learning a new baby that's going through its "terrible twos". Like kids, our machines can frustrate the hell out of us at times, but we still love 'em. We'll all get through it!

Regards-
Bill

[luckettg]

Jeff, I am still waiting to learn how to filter nasty PMs, if you can tell?:)

Your point is well made too, ie. constructive criticism. My boss at Whirlpool often says, "Conflict is good", and it is as long as we are respectfull and kind to each other. It has helped us develope many products and do a better job than just being "yes" people. We have mature products that still have bugs pop up from time to time, despite testing that is way beyond what our competitors will do for their products. I have recently tossed my last dot matrix printer, mostly because I have not used it for a decade, and have my only inkjet that will do 11x17 paper quit working. I have two other printers for backup, but the color on one of them will not print properely with this PC. My bandsaw blade pulleys need cleaned and aligned. My $20,000 pickup is rusting away and is only 14 years old...something I think is obscene.

The point is, CW's machine has a lot of parts to keep working correctly together, and constant monitoring, tuning, and repairing should not be unexpected. Failing right out of the box happens with anyone's products, and is always frustrating.

Flamers should be sent to the black hole and I appreciate your doing that job.
Thank you!:)

[SeaCapt97]

Guess I spent a long time writing my last post. Yours came in while I was writing.

CNS Ranch - You are just plain "dead wrong" !

I did THINK I could frame a house with my first hammer! I did THINK I could build a fretwork Grandfather clock with my first scroll saw! As it turns out, at that time, I was wrong!:D

I can do it now though and still have and use the hammer!

Bill

[cnsranch]

I can do it now though and still have and use the hammer!Bill

Ever mash your thumb (or bend a nail or two) while you were learning? :mrgreen:

[luckettg]

Darn it. The tires on my Bosch table saw needed reinflated. Where did the pressure go while just sitting in my shop?:roll: It is a sweet saw to use for prepping boards for carving, which I hope to make one this afternoon of a new mother and her 2 week old baby girl. I will post the pics later...hopefully.

[liquidguitars]

1) Out of the box, my scanning probe was defective - the wire going into the housing, when wiggled, would open / close the connection.

2) The software crashes about 2 times per hour on my plain-vanilla, up-to-date PC.

3) The cutting bit snapped during a .4 inch plunge into 1/2" pine. (No, there was no wobble, the chuck was clean and lubed, the board was under the roller, etc. etc. etc.)

4) Unexpected / Unanticipated resizing of scanned images.

5) One or two carvings have started (and continued) 2” above the board surface (again, all sensor clean, etc.)

I know just about everthing that could go wrong with the CW and with the exception of the your probe " that is if you pluged it in" it's USER ERROR DUDE! get your $#@ together.. TROLL

just kidding.. :-D

LG

[earlyrider]

I paid a bunch of money, alot more than for this machine, last year in taxes, and the darned government is even worse than before!!! I want my money back! If only they were as concerned about giving good value and service as the Carvewright folks, the problems would be mitigated. Clearly, none of the current administration are Carveaholics. God bless America and my woodgrinding friends!:mrgreen:
Ron

[want2b]

Guess we all need to step back and evaluate our expectations. Are we realisitic to expect the carver to be as reliable as the $39 skill saw we buy based on occasional usage? If we get the machine that runs without any issues for 'X' hours then we are tickled and got what we expected. If it has issues soon after/or immediately after purchase then we are pissed. IF THE SKILL SAW ONLY RAN FOR MINUTES WE WOULD BE? Since most of us probably don't do construction for a living we don't have the saw failure and we as the buyer don't expect any less from the carver without realising the difference in complexity of making the tool work. The skill saw(& most other power tools) only have one direction of movement, all other moves we provide. I have a lot of other tools, routers, table saw, radial, cutoff, lathe, planers, but none of them deal with the complexity of the carver. Stopped at a local sign shop and bought a piece of high density foam to play with, spent an hour talking with the folks who made their signs from PVC, foam, acrylic, etc. They had a CNC table that would handle 5' x 10' sheets using a vacumm holddown system. They were totally impressed that I could do 3D, they have heard their machine is coming out with a $4,000 dollar software/hardware update that will begin to get them out of a 2D limitation. Guess what(they are scared it will tear up due to the new direction of movement and can't imagine getting the detail I showed them).
I've had problems and gotten mad, but
Luck to all and happy carving, Rick H.
My rambling point is, if you expect perfection, be prepared to pay for it.

[HelpBot3000]

I think the entire tech support team is great but would be remiss if I didn't give Barry a deserved "two thumbs up" for a little extra effort and friendliness.


Wow, thank you! We got a great group of guys and gals in here though, I just try to do my part.

Barry

[hess]

Wow, thank you! We got a great group of guys and gals in here though, I just try to do my part.

Barry

Hey Barry you and Philip are great, both of you have been there for me

Hess

[cabnet636]

want 2 b, if a shop has a reasonably decent 3axis cnc of any size and is not getting the detail of a carvewright (i have a carvewright, and two camaster cnc's) then they would be having an operator error, i used my carvewright for all of my sinage on my farm and occasionally my wife and her friends like to use it. and am now producing large 3d carvings for my work.

as a commercial and residential cabinetmaker i should have gone cnc many years ago and i can thank the carvewright for helping me up the ladder, with the vectric cnc software and thier new aspire there is no level of detail that is unobtainable and at far less than the 4000.00 the shop you visited is about to pay.

jim mcgrew
www.mcgrewwoodwork.com